CELINE: Hey listeners, Celine here. We want to echo the voices of BIPOC, especially on black and native Twitter, who pointed out the obscene contrast in policing and recall the militarized crackdown on Black Lives Matter protesters and native land defenders. We've posted some practices on our Instagram that have helped us stay grounded. And here are some of them. Light a candle, call in sick, connect with your people, disengage from online spaces, go for a walk, create a moment of stillness. Deep breaths. Foregrounding black folks is integral to anti-racism. Because to paraphrase civil rights warrior, Fannie Lou Hamer, when black people get free and black women get free, everybody gets free. onwards.
CELINE: Hey everyone and welcome to resetting the table, expanding imagination around race, place and faith for our collective liberation. I'm Celina Chuang.
MARIA: I'm Maria Mulder
TRIXIE: And I'm Trixie Ling. We are hosting this podcast from the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh, otherwise known as Vancouver, Canada. Acknowledging the land is one way we want to commit to decolonization and begin each episode in a good way; expressing solidarity with the indigenous struggle for rights, reparations, and sovereignty.
CELINE: Today, we're talking about anti blackness and the Asian experience. What are ways we can frame anti racism work through solidarity with our black siblings and neighbors, both here in so called Canada and south of the border? How do our own cultures and identities inform how we show up in the struggle for black lives and black liberation? In today's conversation, we talk about our own journeys on learning racism and white supremacy, especially relating to a Canadian context. This is by no means the only time we'll be exploring anti black racism and solidarity with black folks in conversation. We wanted to start the series on this note to frame our podcast, since what we talk about will inform future conversations. Also, just to note that we're recording on zoom, so the sound quality won't be perfect. Thanks for bearing with us as we birth this podcast baby during a pandemic. With that, let's get into it.
Welcome, everyone, to our first official podcast episode. I'm here with Trixie Ling and Maria Mulder.
TRIXIE: Hello.
MARIA: Hello.
CELINE: And today we're talking about anti blackness and engaging in solidarity with anti black racism work as East Asians, which may seem a bit of a niche topic, but I think is really important. And what we're going to talk about, I think will inform the ways that we think about structural racism and white supremacy, and I think encourage other asians, East Asians, especially but people of color who have more privilege to to continue to dig deeper into kind of the unlearning and relearning that's involved with anti racism work and center our black siblings and neighbors as we do that, because you can't really deal with racism and white supremacy without dealing with anti blackness. It's really built on that.
MARIA: Yeah, and you can't really, I think you can't really come to terms with your own relationship with your own race, unless you look at it through a lens of your own privilege in comparison to anti blackness, or at least as Asians because East Asian-ness is white adjacent, let's say, it's a lot easier to not really think about it or to not think about the privilege that you have. Yeah.
CELINE: Yeah, so like what I see, particularly within like the East Asian folks who are talking about racism, firstly, there's a lot of talk about making racism more shallow, or like talking about racism just in terms of representation. So for example, we get an Asian woman politician or a news anchor and that's like, that's the only win that matters. Now, that's really exciting when people are represented like in politics, or the media, or in like stories, like movies and books, like that's really exciting. And it's important to see yourself in a story or the media, because it reflects kind of your own experience. And there's, that's really powerful. But it's certainly not the only like, that's not kind of the vision of liberation for, for all people of color, and especially thinking about kind of the violence of anti blackness and how this underlays so much of racism both in the States and in Canada, which we'll talk about more.
TRIXIE: I mean, just to pick up from where you left off, Celine, I think, when you said like, how we see ourselves and how we identify ourselves as East Asians is an important part in relationship to our black friends and neighbors because understanding the history and the context and the structures and the systems is seeing that the oppression of one group is connected to the oppression of other groups. And so it's not just in isolation or in silos for people of color. And so when you see how we're interrelated and how our history and systems are tied together, it is much more important and much more urgent that, that we do the work, as we're complicit also, in the system that we are, we're swimming in, I would say, the white supremacy water that we are that surrounds us. That we do this work so we can all work together toward a shared liberation. Because if our oppression are tied together, our shared liberation will be tied together. It's not a competition it's not, it's not that divided. Who will come out first, because that's the system that we live in, and the hierarchical supremacy that we find ourselves. So I think in that case, that's why it's so much harder, but also so much more important that we do this work.
MARIA: Yeah, because we are in a system that basically tells us, the closer to whiteness you are, the better off you will be. And the more the better, you are point blank. And we need to push against that and say no, like that system is actually incredibly flawed and harmful and worth should not be attached to how close to whiteness you are. Like that shouldn't be how we're grading each other or our successes or our experiences in the world. And it's not, it's not a new concept, right? Like, many, many people over the years have said things along the same lines of like my oppression is tied to your oppression. If you are oppressed, that means I am not free. Like like that idea that just because one person is free if it's freedom on the backs of someone else's oppression. That's not actually freedom. Yeah, like last last week, I was listening to a really, really old Barack Obama speech. Like, I think it was from 2004, like super, super old. And he basically said the same thing. And so it's been said-
CELINE: Oh Barack,
MARIA: Oh Barack.
CELINE: There's so much you can do with you're
TRIXIE:Yes.
CELINE: When you're the commander in chief of an empire.
MARIA:Yes.
CELINE:Yes. Yeah.
TRIXIE: Which I mean, I think that really ties into I mean, as East Asians to like this model minority myth, right? That has been so destructive, you know, the ideas of Asians as like the good, you know POC, people of color. And that because we're closest to whiteness, or we'd like to think we are, that's how it can be really weaponized and pitting us against, like, our black and indigenous people. And, and we need to, we need to, like immediately this mental, this myth that it's really harmful to us to our own community, but really, to the black community and, and that in this process, you know, we have to be asking the hard question of how do we see this actually play out in our own lives and family and particularly as immigrants like as myself? That's actually a harder question to ask. Because I think that's part of the narrative that we were told, as we, as remind me and my family immigrating from Taiwan, to the US and then to Canada it's like, how do we be good? How do we fit in? And how do we contribute? You know, and how do we just keep our head down? Work hard, don't ask questions. Don't cause conflict. Don't write badly.
MARIA: Don't ruffle any feathers.
TRIXIE:Yes, exactly. So we have to almost do like extra harder work to really dismantal what we've been taught and what's been modeled for us by, um, by the system.
CELINE: Mhmm. And I think I see that my own family like being, you know, the child of immigrants. I like in my parents, certainly there's there was a buying into the narrative of diversity and multiculturalism as kind of what you're talking about with the model minority myth, like the idea that the the good people of color or those who work hard, like the idea of meritocracy, will come out okay. Like, they'll get through and they'll succeed. And, and because of that we have this, like, diverse and multicultural country where you know, all are welcome. I say that with like, quotes.
MARIA: Big quotes.
CELINE:Yeah, that's not Yeah. But like, that's definitely what they've kind of internalized. And I don't want to, I think something that's hard for me is like, how do I critique these narratives, knowing that they are damaging myths that actually perpetuate violence, while also kind of respecting and holding the experience of my parents with tenderness and with care, because, you know, it's different for me than it is for them. And for them arriving here, both speaking English as like their third or fourth language, and having like, the cultural differences to navigate and all the things like the pressure, even, you know, despite these, the rhetoric of multiculturalism and diversity, like the pressure to conform and assimilate in certain ways,
I can't remember there's a saying, I don't remember where I heard this: a saying about something like the first generation survives, and then like, the second one, kind of, like, can ask questions or like, do that deep, the deeper work of like understanding your identity, but your parents don't have my parents didn't really have that luxury or that privilege. Right? So I'm trying to think in like in terms of, yeah, how do I do the work of dismantling those, those false narratives, while also understanding that, like, the fact that my parents, you know, believe those as true and probably still do, and, and we're taught those in order to become, you know, Canadians doing that doesn't make them. Sorry, the onus isn't just on them, it's on kind of the system and the state that is teaching those false narratives and kind of doing that very intentionally, I think, to hold particular people in power. So those are some of the tensions that I at least feel like as an East Asian who, yeah, who has immigrant parents.
TRIXIE: Yeah, and I think, you know, in addition to I always say, all the barriers, the language, cultural, socio economic barriers that my family came, and that we settled, though in majority place in a neighborhood, Richmond, where it is majority Asians. I think, in some way that we both assimilated but also we felt really comfortable, where we're just, you know, with our own in that sense. And I feel like out of that there is also harder to confront racism. And I think sometimes when I think back about, like, what my parents said, the racist things that my parents said, and our things kind of what they're taught what they hear, and what they uphold themselves, it's, it is really, really hard to confront them and their own beliefs, because they do want to integrate and be white, basically. And part of that is, yeah, is kind of feeding into the systemic injustice and upholding the system, and not really understanding the history. And I think that's the really hard part to describe to them. When you're new to a country, you don't know the history of colonization, of slavery, of criminalization, all these things. You were not taught that. Right. So yeah, I feel like being a good citizen, is that you want to just fit into the dominant, dominant system narrative and, and and to be on top, you know, that's what success is. But yet, there's a lot of internal racism, internalized racism that we face, and that sometimes we don't even see it ourselves. And that we we put that on indigenous folks and black folks.
CELINE: Yeah, I was. I was thinking about what you said about history. And I think it's something that makes it difficult in like a Canadian context is less of a racial consciousness around being Asian. In the States, Asian America had a kind of racial awakening in the 60s, like, along with a lot of other social movements that were happening, where they kind of that was a very political thing to be Asian American, because it was saying, like, I am American and also Asian, and that hyphenated existence means that I am, like, this identity is part of why part of what makes me American and it's also in resistance to kind of like, dominant America. And we don't really have the same moment, here like yet at least. And I think maybe part of that is like, in Canada, or what we call Canada we don't, our identity is less oppositional than than the states. Like in the States it's like they were, you know, to, to make the USA or whatever, like they were against the British and then now they're their own country and then, like even having different identities that are positioned like Asian American or African American or black or a Native American is kind of like positioned in resistance to the norm and kind of dominant, those who were part of dominant society or who benefit white supremacy. And here, we don't have the same consciousness. And I think that's part of what makes it hard to talk about anti black racism in Canada. Because so often, and I've definitely been guilty of this, where we think, like Canada is, there's a sense of Canadian superiority or virtue, I'll say so like, because of these words like diversity, multiculturalism, which have been used historically to actually like those words, and those policies were used for in colonial policies and law that continued to disenfranchise indigenous folks. So they were not neutral words at all. But we have these words, right. And they're part of part of kind of what we talked about when we talk about being Canadian. It's a different kind of fabric of white supremacy, right? It's more like layers of fabric, maybe. But, but something that I think is really, part of like doing the anti racism work and solidarity work is then uncovering those hidden histories right and uncovering what are the lineages of resistance and of solidarity too. Like in the States, there is solidarity between black power and yellow power in the 60s as well. And there's something that I learned recently, I watched like a short documentary called the rainbow coalition. And it was in Chicago, there were a bunch of different groups. This was the era of the Black Panthers. So I keep seeing the 60s, I don't actually know exactly what
MARIA: the 70s.
CELINE: Yeah, it was. So after Malcolm X was assassinated and black power, or sorry the Black Panthers were growing and growing, what they were doing in terms of like their food programs, and education, and all these things, which often aren't associated with them now by general, mainstream society. But these really liberative important things that they were doing and growing. There's this coalition in Chicago, which was poor white folks, Asian American folks who are, I think, living in Chinatown, like low income folks, Puerto Rican folks, and then the Black Panthers, I think I might be missing one too. But they were there's this coalition of different groups that came together. And were demanding and occupying like City Hall and occupying meetings and having sit-ins and demanding, you know, safe housing for everyone, and coming together against what they said their common enemy was. So there's some really beautiful histories that even if they're in a context that's a bit different from ours, that we can really draw from and learn from, and it's kind of a responsibility, I feel to, to share those and kind of pass those on as well. Because if we can learn more from those lineages, and we can, you know, look to the past to build a future that is freer.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think even in BC, like very local where we live, you know, I'm learning over time, even the, the history like I like I said, I feel like when I grew up in school, I mostly know American history, European history. I knew very little I think about Asian history and, and even as you know, living in Canada, growing up in Canada, even Canadian history or parts of Canadian history, what I was told. And think part, as I'm kind of my own process of unlearning things and relearning is hearing the hidden and untold stories of what has happened in the past; the discrimination against East Asians and with the Chinese head tax policy and the Chinese Exclusion Act, and not like not really learning that in school and just knowing and understanding, like the reality of that in the past how that sense of exclusion and racism and oppression and how I'm not sure, like I think people that speak up against it, but yet at the same time, I think that was like this understanding that it's not as loud and so let's not wait, we're not hearing those stories as much. And as I'm uncovering this, and just like, really saddened and and just angry over what happened. I'm also hearing stories of resistance. So you know, holding both like, understanding, yeah, the painful history, but also knowing there are people in the resistance and I mean, even funny one that I read, I went to this Chinese Canadian Museum in Chinatown a couple weeks or a couple months ago, and they were showing a barbecue campaign resistance, which I thought was really interesting, where like barbecue meat is a staple in many Chinese food cultures. And yeah, long story short, it was a lot of the white dominant mainstream people they didn't think that was safe, the meat was safe to eat. And then so basically, they it's also a huge livelihood income, right? So they really protested against it to really close those business and people resisted and like took the campaign all the way from, like Vancouver all the way to Ottawa. So you know, it was really encouraging to see that collective resistance and collective speaking out and how much more we need that right now right to fight against this small minority of just not speaking out, like if anything, we need to confront the racism that we face as a people, but also like the racism that is clearly against black communities. And again, in the system education, health care in the, in the criminal justice system. So yeah, that's how I feel like learning from the past and then using that to confront. And presently,
CELINE: I think with, you know, with COVID, and the pandemic, and kind of the anti Asian racism that was happening more visibly around that, I think a lot of us have had some kind of, it's been a wake up call, I think for a lot of Asian folks who maybe don't deal with racism to the point that our black siblings do, like, in terms of we don't face the same structural discrimination within Yeah, like the criminal justice system, for example. Not the same extent, and, and things that are very much that make up the kind of the infrastructure and the institutions of our country. The the racism that's embedded in those places doesn't affect us, in the same way, right? I mean, we don't have to think about all those things all the time, unless we're like learning about actively or reading about it and trying to do that work. But I think the pandemic has really brought to light that we, yeah, just the idea of... I can't remember Trixie do you remember who said this idea of conditional belonging? Like how we are because we are adjacent to whiteness, there's kind of this, like, 'You're okay for now' sense for lack of a better word, and then when something happens, like, you know, a pandemic that happened to originate in China, and then suddenly there's this panic, like racial panic around Chinese restaurants and Chinese food, and people who look Chinese, even though they might not have traveled to China in like yours, has kind of
MARIA: They might not even be Chinese.
CELINE: say, yeah, and that happened, right? Like there is in Vancouver, there is a native youth, I think who got mistaken for being Asian and like harassed during the kind of beginning days of the pandemic, you really see overt white supremacy, rearing its head and those moments.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. I think, you know, sometimes it has to, like with this pandemic and the rise of anti Asian racism again, historically, also, as I we've talked about, but currently, and I think for me, it really hit home as in like, hit me the hardest when I experienced when I experienced actually racism and a racist act in May, during the height of COVID. And when a white man spat on me and said, some sexual and racial slurs, and I think, you know, right away, I mean, feeling all sorts of emotions but I did call the police. And I think thinking back now, feeling that anger and calling the police as in that's what we were supposed to do, report it. I realized after talking to so many people, you know, that's in the sense that I would just go and call the police, because that's what I think safety is. They're here to protect. And you know, to get to the bottom of it, I realize like many of my black friends and black people because of what they face in the criminal justice system, because of police brutality. For them, like police would not be the people they call first, you know, for if they want to even report or think of protection. And so even like, I think, you know, processing my own experience, which has really pushed me to do this work has also allowed me to see how do other people experience it. And again, even like police where we're taught like, like dominant, like the dominant narrative that, you know, they're here to protect us, and so we should go to them. And so that's, that's kind of, for me, working out through my own complicity of the system that is really unjust. And that is quite racist toward indigenous and black folks.
MARIA: Yeah, it makes me think of, so I went on a really long, big road trip through the states last summer. And I didn't actually realize it until I was kind of working through it with my counselor recently, but I was deeply, deeply anxious about my safety in the States as a queer woman of color. And as I've kind of been unpacking that anxiety, now, like a year and a half later, it's made me realize like, oh, there are people in the states who literally feel this every day because of the fact that they're black. And they can't get away from it. They don't have another country to escape to because America is their home. And that makes me really angry. And then I have that automatic reaction of like, oh, but I shouldn't be angry. I think that's something as Asian women, especially we feel we're taught to be docile and meek and nice and passive. And so when we experience deep anger, even if it's a righteous anger, like this type of anger, I think a lot of our default is to back away from it and to kind of judge ourselves for feeling those things, when actually part of the work of solidarity is to hold on to that anger and to do something with it. Because that anger is just a sign that something needs to change, right. But we're not taught how to do that. And, like, I think generally as a, as a society, we're not taught how to deal with anger, in the best of times. And then, as you get into these niche populations of Asian women, and etc, etc, it gets harder and harder, or there's more and more layers and barriers to, to unpack before you actually get to the work of using the anger for good.
CELINE: Mm hmm. Yeah. And anger can be such a productive and like, and I mean, productive in the capitalist sense. Like, where it's like, you have to make something out of everything. But I mean, in the sense of like, it's generative, it can create something that before you weren't able to create, so yeah, yeah, I think part of solidarity work and anti racism work is having like a relationship with our, our anger and our rage and, and learning from the anger and allowing, yeah, anger to be a force that moves us. And in a direction, you know, and I think Trixie, you and I were talking about Austin Channing Browns book.
TRIXIE: Yes, I was just about to bring it up.
CELINE: Yeah, that's right.
MARIA: Yeah, and I think we need to, I mean, it shouldn't have to be articulated. But I would like to articulate that anger does not equal violence, right? Like you can be really, really angry and use that anger as momentum to like, do some pretty radical stuff. And none of that has to equal violence. And I think part of the stigma with anger is that we do attach anger and violence together as kind of siblings. And that's not helpful either.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm.
CELINE: Yeah. And we haven't talked a ton in this conversation about theology and kind of white supremacy in the church, which could probably be its own episode. But I think like, I always come back as a Christ follower back to I think about Jesus being angry, like, the part where Jesus is in the temple, which has just been turned, turned into a consumerist Kind of, yeah, exactly. Something that is disrespectful and undignified to people and to God and he rages like, he turns over tables, he has a wip at one point, you know, and that's not the image that generally we use, and we talk about Jesus, but I like to remember that when I think about anger, because Jesus in, in the biblical stories in the gospels like, is defined by kind of care for the marginalized across boundaries, and kind of societal barriers. And also he got really fucking angry sometimes, on behalf of and for those people, right. Because what he was angry about was about, yeah, the exclusion of people and the way that wealth and power could be used to dominate others.
MARIA: Mm hmm.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm.
CELINE:I like that image.
TRIXIE: Yes. She talks a lot about Yeah, she talks about rage and anger. And I, when I read what she wrote, I totally felt it because I think it also helped me better understand, but also express that right, like, how do we use our rage and anger? And how does it move us to do our work and have a look at the history and, you know, all the work, particularly black folks have done in resistance and using and channeling the anger to work toward justice and peace? I feel because of my own personal experience, and also understanding what's happening around me. It's it's really fueling me, I think it's like a catalyst that really pushed me to speak out. And I think that's the main thing is like, that silence is actually, and particularly I would say, for Asians and Asian women to that silence is what's gonna be like, no, that's the oppression I feel. And so I feel like the rage is and that anger is, is what kind of helps me counter that silence of accepting things or being apologetic. All the things, Maria, that you said that all the stereotypes that we're told to be that behaviors we're taught, I think this is where I can, I can use it in so much more powerful way I think, that I ever have. And I look at, again, indigenous and black folks and that black folks, and that they have really used the righteous rage and anger in the way to move their work and the collective work of liberation. So I feel more inspired than ever, in holding that embracing that, and confront and using that to confront, and in using it as a way to, to do the work and to, you know, bring other people along to speak up.
TRIXIE: Yeah, I feel like you know, just off of that, too, like I feel like as as Jesus followers, those like that's what we're called to do to follow Jesus and we mcan't just pick and choose ways that we want to follow Jesus. And sometime I think this is how we, it can be as I'm learning to decolonize you know, Christianity, what it means to see the whole Bible, though the whole whole character of Jesus, and looking at how he really, yeah, set the example to do justice and to speak out and to flip tables if needed, you know, and to feed people like those are all of all the ways that we're called to do to follow and, and I think sometimes sometimes that makes us feel uncomfortable or you know, and all these, like, sure like niceties that we're taught to just make peace with people. I think I have to Yeah, remember those stories where Jesus is actually just call people out. Very directly, particularly the Pharisees. And so those are good moments for me to remember and to be like him to have the courage to have the faith to be able to speak truth to power, speak truth and love, just like Jesus, and to flip some tables.
CELINE: Mm hmm. Yeah, so I think what you said Trixie, like, being, then, Christian or Jesus follower, because Christian also is very fraught, thinking about, like, the religious elite of our time, for example, I think it is very much a spiritual call to do the work of racial justice and anti racism, because of those reasons. Because Jesus was so clearly about calling out those in power, speaking truth. And often, yeah, making people uncomfortable flipping tables, and also extending radical care and hospitality, speaking to those who weren't meant to be spoken to, who are not deemed human, and welcoming them into a community. So yeah, I think people of faith, I think, have a particular responsibility to pursue the work of anti racism, and the work of dismantling white supremacy. What are some ways that we can do that, like in our own lives? Or, you know, more broadly?
MARIA: Yeah, I think one of a really, really, like, base level place to start would be just to put in the work to educate yourself, like, read books, read the writings, and the thoughts of people of color, and black authors and black poets. And, like, learn your history, in here in what we call Vancouver, like, learn the history of Hogan's Alley, and how that's connected to Chinatown. And in the downtown Eastside. And, you know, like, learn learn the history of your local place, and the people who came before you. And then when you can't do it on your own anymore, like, go and find someone who can give you more information. Right, but like, put in the work yourself, don't don't just leave it to our neighbors who are black to do all of the emotional labor of educating us. Like put in the work first yourself.
CELINE: Mm hmm. After the George Floyd moment, like after that happened, I remember seeing so many like social media statuses from black women, particularly black people that were just like, I am exhausted, like, Do not talk to me if you are not black, like, oh, like, I'm so sorry that you have to, you know, on top of the trauma of seeing yet another black person experience police brutality, like you have to then educate all your white and non black, you know, people in your life that then want to like process this with you. Like, that's completely unfair to expect.
MARIA: It's ridiculous.
CELINE: Yeah. Yeah.
MARIA: And I think like, at one point in time, we're all guilty of it, right? Like, because we think Oh, just go to the source, like go to someone who can give me firsthand experience information and like in certain contexts, that can be so rich and beautiful and wonderful. But you can't expect that amount of emotional labor all the time like you do have to do your own work.
TRIXIE: And I think on that note, it's and I even personally experienced experience it particularly these days with a lot of conversation with white Christian men in particular, that doing the work is important in entering into those conversations. So you're not always asking particularly if you're asking a black person to explain, explain, explain right and where you are just so close minded. You have made up your mind already or you know, you're just in denial. There is just not this openness this open hearted, open minded to, to be able to sit in that discomfort sit in that the burden that it will be heavy to carry this and that we all have to carry it together. But that posture, I feel like to even enter into some of these conversations that change in these, that's the work that you have to do yourself but also in relation to people, but not put that and not put your own emotional labor and that guilt, particularly on black folks to educate you and to make you feel better about yourself.
MARIA: Yeah, I think Yeah, posture is really important having actual curiosity, and going into your work with the thought and idea that everything that you've understood up to this point might be completely wrong. And like, most likely not everything is completely wrong, but like, odds are a lot of what you understand is quite wrong. You know? Like, um less informed than it should be, or, you know, like, there's always more work to do. So having that posture and keeping that posture is so important.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm.
CELINE: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For me, like some really key resources and doing that unlearning work in a Canadian context were Desmond Cole's book, for sure. And also the video series that kind of goes with the book, or maybe it was before the book, I can't remember but has interviews with like families who are affected by police brutality, and anti black racism, it's a must watch. Like, I want everyone who lives in Canada to watch this, or to read the book, because I think it's really, it lays out the basics. And kind of also how it connects the dots so well between kind of systemic and structural racism, and white supremacy and kind of like, seemingly innocuous or casual encounters with the police or with other people, just how black bodies are so surveyed and kind of contained and criminalized or, like, that's what the state attempts to do, in, in seemingly benign ways, right. And you see that with indigenous folks to, but Yeah, and also, um, Robin Maynard's Policing Black Lives was the first book that I read. And I think it might be the only one that's not an academic text that's written about, that pretty much traces the entire history of anti black racism in Canada. And it also talks about the connection to colonialism and anti indigenous racism. And it's methodical it is, of course, devastating to read, but it's really important. And I think, yeah, those are like two texts that I would say, are pretty foundational to understanding anti black racism in Canada, and definitely woke me up to a lot that I didn't know. yeah, there's this complete misconception that is, again, like I think intentional but the idea that we're we didn't have slavery in Canada, and that that's it doesn't affect, you know, how our society works and how, you know, racial hierarchies work in Canada. But I listened to a podcast episode now I'm remembering one of the things that woke me up to that specifically was The Secret Life of Canada. And they talk about
TRIXIE: Wow, yes, I was gonna say I actually have that book, I'm still working through the Desmond Cole book. And it's really, it's so hard to read. But it's so important. And I think both reading like fiction and nonfiction and poetry. It's, I remember this book I read a long time ago. I think they made a mini series, The Book of Negroes.
MARIA: Mm hmm.
TRIXIE: And that really, that also opened my eyes; the connection to the slave trade, and particularly in the, to Atlantic Canada, and how they arrived. And the stories that came out of that. So that was something that I I still remember even though I read a while back ago, in terms of the story, that has a lot of historical facts in it. And that Canada itself is really, really big. And so it's important to really, you know, read West Coast, East Coast, prairies like Atlantic Canada, just and the territories just to really understand the history and how we can see it play out currently. And so what we can work toward in the future.
CELINE: Yeah, definitely look to our specific place like Maria was saying, with Hogan's Alley in Vancouver and the black history that's part of that place, like learning about anti blackness and structurally and systemically and related to place I think helps us then look to where we are and and say like, what are the ways that we can then support efforts by black advocacy groups for things like Hogan's Alley for housing or for defunding the police in our, in wherever city we're in? So there's so many ways then that we can engage around our neighborhood around our place or under city.
TRIXIE: Mm hmm. I mean, that's kind of what I feel like also, as Christian, we're really called to do what it means to love our neighbors, like often, who are our neighbors, right, and to actually create those friendships and relationships and connections. By understanding the history by by knowing the place that we're in is really important for us to reclaim, listening to podcasts, reclaim our theology, Reclaiming My Theology by Brandy Miller. And that has really been helping me to think about what does it mean to dismantle our theology from white supremacy? And how does that play out in my, my neighborhood and in my life, and the relationship that I have. And so those are all important ways to kind of live that out. Not just in our head, but also in our language, in our, in our heart and in our relationship with our neighbors, particularly our black neighbors.
MARIA: That makes me think of just one last, a very simple thing that can be done. A solidarity work is if you are using resources, like financially support the people who are doing the emotional labor to put those resources out there, right, like thinking have Brandy Miller's podcast, and like the Patreon connected to that or books, and things like that, like actually pay for that stuff, so that the money gets back to the people who are doing that hard work so that you can do your hard work.
TRIXIE: Yeah, and just on that note to like, yeah, using like, literally putting your money where your mouth is, as in like that, use your power and your privilege and, and financially supporting people who are doing the work and also people who are supporting, particularly black folks, I know, there was a fund going on locally to to support and find like black therapists, especially at this time with, you know, the mental emotional needs. So like I personally donated to this fund. And I just know that how important it is to to create those spaces. And that's an act of being an ally in solidarity and co conspirator and doing the work and taking on the burden and labor.
MARIA: Pay the people flip the tables.
TRIXIE: Yes.
CELINE: Speak the truth. That's our unofficial tagline. Yeah.
TRIXIE:Break, break, break bread together when we're able to
MARIA: Break bread and then flip tables and then pay people.
CELINE/TRIXIE: Yes.
TRIXIE: Yes, yes. All of the above.
MARIA: For now, do-xia,
TRIXIE: Shie shie.
CELINE: Thanks, and see you soon.
MARIA: Before the credits, we just wanted to take a moment to thank all of our patrons who are already supporting us. It has been really encouraging to have folks believing in our vision, and showing up from the get go. We're looking forward to learning and doing our work together.
TRIXIE: Resetting the table is produced by Emma Renaerts and the intro music is by Sunia and Paul Gibbs. If you like what this podcast is about, consider supporting us on patreon at patreon.com/resettingthetable. Patreon contributions will help us honor the labor of our guests in showing up and sharing their stories. funds we raise will go towards speaker honorariums as well as making our podcasts more sustainable long term. We value amplifying voices of color and we hope you do too.
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