Trixie
Hey everyone and welcome to resetting the table, expanding imagination around race place and pay for our collective liberation. I'm Trixie Ling.
Celine
I'm Celine Chuang,
Maria
and I'm Maria Mulder, we host this podcast from unceded musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil Wahtuth territory, otherwise known as Vancouver, Canada. Acknowledging the land is one way we want to commit to decolonization, and to begin each episode in a good way, expressing solidarity with the indigenous struggle for rights, reparations and sovereignty.
Trixie
Today, we're talking about unlearning white Jesus. What are our own experience of white Jesus? And what baggage and connotations does white Jesus carry? And how can we unlearning white Jesus and expanding our imagination around depicting God further the journey of our faith and justice? These are some of the questions we will be wrestling with in this conversation. So join us and let's get into it.
Celine
A final note,
Celine
we keep it real in our conversations. And as such, there will be some swearing in this podcast, including this episode. We'll give a heads up for individual episodes when this applies for parents and listeners with kids in the room. With that, onwards,
Celine
Dun un un un Dun un un un Dun (laughter)
Celine
White Jesus!
Celine
Everywhere you look.
Celine
That's how I feel now. But I didn't always feel that I didn't know I see it that way. Yeah, so I think today we're talking about white Jesus, and our relationships with growing up or not with depictions of God or Jesus that were of a white man. And how, what does that mean? How can we challenge it? And how can we unlearn it? And how can that help us in a journey towards liberation and justice and furthering our imagination around faith and the world? So I don't know about you two, but for me, it was kind of a childhood, like growing up in the Christian in a conservative Christian church with kind of evangelical tendencies. Oh, no, they were stronger than tendencies. But an evangelical conservative Christian church, white Jesus was kind of assumed. And White God as a white man as well, or kind of assuming that that's who he was, if he was a person was kind of part of like day to day life, and almost like, yeah, assumed day to day life. Everyone kind of it was unchallenged, like everyone kind of thought of God as, as that way. And certainly, like in this church, in terms of who would be the people like, who seemed closest to God, like the people who are speaking from the pulpit, the people who had the power to make decisions, were also all white men. So. So it's maybe not surprising. But I think part of it is also what I remember at least is part of it being depictions, and like, even like kids Bibles, or any kind of artwork, that would be like, part of church life in some way. And this is kind of like, I feel like a lot of people of color, like, who grew up in faith environments that i don't think i think this is kind of the norm for a lot of people that I've talked to, and for a lot of us, it's like, there's some kind of moment, or gradual moment of awakening and reckoning with this. Being like, wait, this isn't, this isn't right, right. And also, like, you know, I think it has to do with a sense of like, some kind of an awakening of racial identity, like realizing that you yourself are not white, if you're someone like, in our example, who's East Asian, and has grown up close to a lot of white people and like close to whiteness. And for me, that was like the church as well, that I grew up in 99%. Probably. Yeah, so I would be curious to hear from you two, like was it was white Jesus, something that you grew up with as like something pervasive and kind of assumed, as well? Or was it something and when did you kind of like realize that?
Maria
I think for me, white Jesus was definitely assumed and normal, and I can just remember, so my mom is a painter. She's really, really talented artist, and we would have, like our VBS Vacation Bible School summer camps in the summertime, and she would paint these huge posters of images based on like the thematic story tellings of the week and usually on the Thursday is the day when Jesus gets crucified. So then Friday, you get to talk about the resurrection and yada yada yada, everyone gets saved blah blah blah. And I remember very, very distinctly when I was maybe seven, her painting of Jesus crucified was very clearly a white man who was fair skinned and had light brown hair and a beard and Yeah, so from a very young age that was super internalized for me. But also, I think there was an added layer of internalization because my dad is white. So I mean, out of the three of us, I'm the only one with a white parent. And I think the fact that my, the parent that is white is my father shaped my idea of God the Father as being a white man, like my dad is. Yeah, yeah. Which is super complicated. Yeah.
Trixie
That's so interesting as you talk about your father. I mean, there's so many layers of it. But like, just on that note, I don't have a personal relationship with my dad. And he also passed away growing up. And so I had a really complicated, really hard relationship. And I think even just a lack of like, male role model figure in my life and a fatherly figure in my life. And so for me, it's like, I think I just didn't have to cling on to to any kind of like father figure. And so I didn't grow up in a Christian family, I also went to Christian school. So that's kind of how I came into faith. And I was very good at school. And so if I think back of, you know, from elementary, high school, all the way to university, in terms of Bible classes, all the way to theology classes, all the way to church, it's all taught to me by white men and women. And that was just because it was taught to me and from their perspective, and therefore, from their voices. In my mind, it always like, like, God was like a white father and white Jesus totally makes sense. Because that's kind of what I heard, and whether it's through images, textbook, Bibles, books, articles, movies that we watch, it was just always in front of me. And obviously, I was also in really white spaces. So those kind of images words was something I just accepted. And again, because I was looking for a father figure, something I, I accepted, but I always felt there was something like I could not quite connect both to Now obviously, the whiteness, but also to like the lack of a father figure. That's something I think I continue to struggle with. But I think as I learn as an adult now, how do I unlearn white Jesus that Jesus is not white? It also is liberating for me to think about who is Jesus? And what does he look like? And how does he show up in my life and particularly in um, you know, my friends, and particularly people of color in communities, how they see Jesus, that was so different from a lot of my white friends, and teachers, particular who taught me about white Jesus, even though they never say the word white. But that was always assume and I think I just accepted it.
Maria
Yeah. Yeah, I think that assumption of normalcy, like one, it's very pervasive, it's everywhere. And I think it can be super dangerous. Like, I remember the first time that I came across an Asian depiction of Jesus, I was looking for Asian icon inspiration for a linocut that I was working on. I really wanted to do an Asian Madonna and child for lots of reasons. But yeah, that was kind of the image that I was looking for. And I found this series of images and like my gut reaction to this Asian depiction of Jesus was that somehow it was sacrilegious and wrong. Celine's making a face as she should! Because that's ridiculous. Yeah. And it's like taken a lot of work to unlearn that, like, why a white depiction of Jesus is holy, that a color depiction of Jesus is somehow less than
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
Oh, definitely sounds like Trixie, your experience, too, I feel in what you're saying is that, like, it's not just about like white Jesus, you know, at the center of white Christianity, but like, also, like the sense of like, acceptance and need to belong, like, was very much tied to, you know, you're like looking for a father figure. And you're also like, trying to belong into this faith, and belong to a community of people, and you're surrounded by white people. So like, all those things are so tied together. But I think it is really like Maria, you're saying it is really harmful, when why Jesus is the unquestioned default, because the fact that so many people, including people of color would just like think of a white man, when someone thinks of like, what does Jesus look like? And no one really talks about how we got to that point, right. It's just kind of like, that's just what happens. That's the way it is. But you know, like white Jesus is not inherently neutral. And whiteness is never neutral, right? It's, it's about dominance, and exclusion. And that's how whiteness functions, which is I like, this is a bit of a tangent. But if you go back, for example, to like immigration history, like I'm thinking of the states more, but like, at one point, Irish people, for example, were not considered white, right? So it's a moving target that is about keeping certain people in and certain people out,
Maria Mulder
Giving power to some and excluding it from others.
Celine
And so, I think if White Jesus if Jesus looks like those who do have those people who are at the center of power, right, as white men are in our society, generally, then there's a problem, right? Because if we look at Jesus in, in the stories of the Bible and the gospels, like, it's really the opposite. Like Jesus is siding with the marginalized and the helpless and the disempowered. Brandy Miller talks about this in her podcasts, we have to mention her every every episode, pay homage to our adopted ancestor, if you will. But how he asks people, he meets them and says, What can I do for you? He meets them where they are. He's in what would become the Middle East as a brown skinned man, you know, living under Imperial occupation, right under the Roman Empire.
Maria
He was a refugee at one point,
Celine
He was a refugee, he didn't have a home. Yeah, he was put to death under an imperial death penalty that was meant to control and kind of control and to curtail resistance by a particular ethnic minority, essentially. And that's what James Cone talks about the cross being like a lynching tree. We're making a parallel with like black America and the struggle for liberation there. And so, really, like, if we were to characterize Jesus, it's and we how we would characterize Jesus today, images or in art. Like we want to look at the margins, right? We want to see Jesus depicted as the so called, like, least of these the people who have the least power.
Trixie
And it takes all work, I think, to reimagine right, because or at least our mind, if we're in this setting, where we're again surrounded by white spaces, white images of Jesus and that perpetuate this like whiteness as as the norm to think about and I've been thinking about what does it mean? What does it mean to say that we're making the images of God like, how do we see ourselves? And it is really hard, obviously, now even more have to be like as a as an Asian woman to be like, how do I relate to a white man? Like, how do I see myself in the white man and that was what was taught to me, you know, Jesus as a white man. I think the power for me to reimagine I almost have to again, see a different image and talk to people who are able to speak on that note, so one of the image that came up for me was I remember watching this movie, I mean, it was like, tolia phase, but that book, The Shack,
Celine
I was just thinking about The Shack.
Trixie
The book, The shack, that everybody had to read, obviously, I got on the train, I read it, and then there's a movie. And I just remembered that there was that scene where Jesus is like a black woman, and I'm like, Oh,
Celine
No, God, God is a black woman.
Trixie
Oh, yeah. God was a black woman,
Celine
The Holy Spirit.
Trixie
Oh, yes, I forgot about that. Thanks. But that was just like, the powerful image right to not, and particularly God as a black woman, you just like, Ah, it's almost took my breath away. And I had to like rework kind of like what did i think but at the same time, it just felt there's this like, moment of sharpness, but then there's like, this moment of like, almost like relatability, that this comfort like, and, and all of a sudden, it's like, I feel like I could relate more. And I want to see more like that kind of image that I can relate to that kind of person I can have a relation a closer relationship to so that is really powerful, too. Like we have to really reimagine and to continue to train our to unlearn to dismantle but then to like, reconstruct, and relearn and reimagine, like, it's, you can't just dismantle something and then have a void. Right. So
Maria
yeah, that makes me think of, what is the movie Evan Almighty? Do you guys remember this film from way back? Anyways, it's a film that I will not comment on the quality of, but the god figure in the film is played by Morgan Freeman. And I remember, as a child, that film was like vilified in the Christian community that I grew up in. And so I think we can't even say that, like this idea of white Jesus or white God is neutral, because there are actually lots of communities that push to protect it. Yeah.
Celine
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's interesting, right? Because people will say, this is just the norm. It's just how we think of it or like, oh, everyone kind of depicts God in their own people group. We're not yet and you're like, then why are people militantly kind of defending the idea that like, God can only be white? Like,
Maria
it's like it's become a dogma?
Celine
Yeah, yeah. Well, it comes down to control and power, right, it comes down to what you said earlier, as a white man who has the most power and the hierarchy of that and to kind of giving up on that it's, it's really hard. And so, like, we need to, yeah, kind of thinking about how does white Jesus like connects with, like, colonization of indigenous people and the power around that?
Celine
Yeah, exactly. Right. So the fact that it's also not neutral because it came through white Jesus has come to us through a lineage of violence, right, and a history of genocide and dispossession, indigenous people, their culture and their land and their lives. And that is part of the, the way white Jesus was used, right. And kind of, you know, in our own context, in Canada, there's now there's more awareness, I think around like the residential schools and like, the 60s scoop, and just various Government sanctioned and government implemented but also church implemented ways of perpetuating colonial violence against indigenous people and white Jesus was very much at like the center of those kind of doctrines. Right?
Maria
Yeah.
Celine
And reading the stories or kind of like hearing from people who went through that. So much of it is like, I mean, it's heartbreaking. And it's also like, it makes sense with what white Jesus is meant to do, right, which is like, again, exclude and kind of remove, what's the word? I mean, colonize, but like take away cultural identity. And kind of,
Trixie
I think there's like these,
Celine
impose this
Celine
Yeah, a dispossession of the land and the dignity and the well being of people, which really leads to a lot of dependency over time and dehumanization, and that systemic structure and of oppression comes in. As a result, colonization.
Maria
Yeah. And then moral judgment is added on top of that, because if you want to be saved, you have to be like Jesus. And if Jesus is a white man, you have to be white, you know. And so it's layer upon layer upon layer of
Celine
Colonial bullshit.
Maria
Yeah.
Celine
Yeah. And you see that, I mean, this is getting a little, this is very kind of much tied to our local kind of our neighborhoods in our city here. But you see that, and not just in the downtown Eastside, but in other places, other places that many people would consider, like, problem places. You know, I know, it's terrible to say, you know, the places where you see a lot of missions work happening, right. So what fascinates me about the Downtown Eastside is that you see this, like entire spectrum of missions and nonprofit work, and nonprofit work that isn't necessarily religious may still have similar dynamics, where you have, like, amazing and very progressive, like harm reduction work being done by some and a lot of pure lead work on kind of one side of the spectrum. And then on the other side was kind of the right side, you know, you see these super Christian or like, by Christian, I mean by in name, kind of like conservative organizations that are doing the same thing as like, in a way as what residential schools did, or as like, colonisation did, which is to say that in order to be saved in order to be good, in order to have a seat at the table, or have tax services, like you have to fulfill our criteria, and you have to listen to this prayer, you have to fit into this box. And I find that really disturbing. Honestly.
Maria
Like, same shit different bag.
Celine
Yeah.
Maria
Over and over again.
Trixie
Yeah, I mean, what you just said, just reminds me because I think when I think about white Jesus and missionaries I think of, then, white Savior, and that really kind of flows into that because and I have been both as a kid on like the typical Mexican Mexico mission trip where you go, and then you do you know, you play with the kids. And then you show this movie, Jesus white Jesus movie, and it always made me felt really uncomfortable. But now as an adult, I can see why because, and even as an adult, it's like I see churches, like particularly kind of carry on this white savior mentality is because majority of the leaders: people who are in power and control are white, and you're often going into marginalized community, which are a lot of them and indigenous black people of color, and you are doing work for them. You know, you feel good about yourself, you're fixing it, you're, you're you're like view yourself as the Savior, which is very problematic. But that is often like accepted and even encouraged when especially on these short term mission trips, and to feel good about yourself afterward. Right? This is what like, what would Jesus do? This is what he would do.
Celine
Would he though? Did he though?
Maria
It makes me think of, if we're, if we're really going to ask the question of what would Jesus do? Like if we go back to the Bible and look at what he did do every time a pharisee or a sajusee...
Celine
Give money to the poor! ,
Maria
Yeah, like every time that someone tried to trip him up with Jewish law, like, what did he do? He gave a really subversive answer that was not expected and didn't fit in the status quo of what people understood to be good and pure, in terms of Jewish law, right. And so in the same way, if White people are going to go and try to fix people's problems in a white savior mentality, the first thing they have to do is actually realize that they are most likely part of the cause of the problem. And that in stepping into this white savior role, they're actually perpetuating these injustices instead of in any way fixing it.
Celine
Mm hmm. Yeah, and in the stories, you know, and the biblical stories, too, like Jesus asks for, in those ways where he calls people to account he's asking for personal commitment and personal sacrifice. He asks for people to give, give something up or commit to giving something that means something to them and their whole lives are altered, right. So like Zacchaeus gives reparations for example, right? He pays back more than He owed to people. Yeah. So yeah, like the young man... What was the... Man I haven't read the Bible in a while (laughter). The young rich dude who, who asks, How do I get into heaven? How do I get into heaven? Or how do I join the kingdom? Right?
Maria
Sell everything that you have.
Celine
Sell everything you have, give the money to the poor and follow me, like,
Maria
And he couldn't do it! He couldn't do it. And at that point, Jesus didn't say, Oh, wait, let me change those terms. I'll alter those terms for you. He didn't do that. He was just like, no, this is what you got to do.
Celine
Yeah, it's interesting, because he talks so much about a wealth and economic disparity, and not at all about what we use now in terms of evangelical, like, all the language we use around personal relationship and salvation and all the things you're supposed to check off the list. Like Jesus doesn't talk about that.
Trixie
It's not all about the knowledge, right? I think there's so much emphasis on like, doctrine, doctrine rules, like that's what the Pharisees were really good at. They can recite anything and following the rules and structures and, you know, lots of education, but I think it's about lived experience. And at least that's something I'm as I'm trying to reclaim my own theology is to focus less on the knowledge the knowing but just the, it's the being who we are, and our lived experience how that is, in some way that's even more valued and elevated.
Celine
Mhmm.
Maria
Yeah, like the intention of the action is so much more important than the action itself.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
I think part of like the idea that theology or like knowing God is head based, it's all knowledge. It's rational. It's like that's part of that has been part of like colonization and the bringing of Christianity to other places. And now how we think of theology or studying Christianity, right? So unlearning that and becoming more embodied in ourselves and our own experiences is a way to also to unlearn what you have to unlearn a colonial way of knowing God.
Trixie
Mmhmm. Yeah, I think one of the things I've been thinking a lot about, that I'm trying to unlearn. And this, like, it's a big toss up is is why I've always heard growing up that was taught to me the "Great Commission" in quotation. That's what as Christians, as good Christians we're supposed to do, to, you know, make disciples of, of everyone we meet, and I mean, that's connected with missionaries, and going to different places, and telling and sharing the good news, but I just been really, yeah, help. And my friend has been helping me to kind of dismantle that in terms of like, really breaking that down. What does that mean? And how does that tie into like, also colonial power and colonization and taking of land and culture and traditions and in the line with, like, white Jesus. And so that has been something I've been trying to think through, which is really hard, because it's so embedded in like, my Sunday school, you know, all the way to like theological classes, what we're taught, that we should be doing, even though the Great Commission is not even, I think, used in the like, in those terms in the, in the Bible, is it? I don't think it's actually called a great commission.
Celine
No, I think that was given later.
Maria
It's been titled the 'Great Commision',
Trixie
it's called,
Maria
like, like, the title that people have that translated have given it.
Trixie
Okay, so yeah, that's not even actually rooted biblically and but yet, we kind of have to take hold of that, and using that as our mental to like, basically convert to everyone. And I say no, as when we see white Jesus, like, when we go into all different lands, and kind of take that and convert it, and make ourselves feel better.
Maria
And it's really hard because the, the core of the quote unquote, Great Commission is not supposed to be harmful, you know, it's not supposed to be based on this power dynamic. It's not supposed to separate people from their cultures. It's not supposed to be all of these things that it now is. And so, I think that's definitely one thing that I struggle with. As a Catholic and the Catholic Church, there are these two major streams, that kind of hold each other in tension. The first is like to be apostolic, We're all called to be apostolic. And then the second is that we're all also called to be contemplative. So a lot of religious orders. They're strictly apostolic, and their work is to do mission somehow. And that language makes me really uncomfortable. And I'm still kind of trying to figure out and sort through. Yeah, like, how do we do this thing that Jesus told us directly to do without also causing harm? Because I think culturally, we've been doing it for so long in a way that causes harm that we can't even see another option, or another way.
Trixie
Especially if our intent is just like, we have to save people and see people's souls like instead of like, how do we do that? Yeah, that's based on relationship and not based on power and control.
Maria
How do we reconciling the worlds like how do we have a more holistic approach?
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
Big Questions. I feel like I've been hearing from, or I've heard from a lot of people's stories in my life. And myself, too, I feel like this kind of a theme that runs through that, that has been running through these conversations is the work of Jesus or work that... Christ-like work or work that Jesus would do now, often doesn't have Jesus in the picture in a way. And so, you know, the work that Jesus does in the Bible, where he restores relationships where he heals people, not just to their bodies, but to their communities, to, you know, for those who are socially ostracized, he restores them. He criticizes the powerful. He speaks across, you know, cultural divides and biases. And, and so all those things, when I see that work happening, which is in the Spirit of Jesus, then I'm like, Okay, I'm on board with this work more so I would say, than missions work that is colonial or harmful, or white-savior centered or short term, or about making you know us in the global north feel better about ourselves? You know, because I think Jesus is there more than those so called missions work, because that's what Jesus was actually doing when he was here and in the stories. And so I think asking those questions is hard. But it also means that we can, Christians maybe can look outward. Because there's often so much fear in Christian culture or it's like, any string beyond this particular line, and you're no longer Christian, or you're no longer part of whatever this community, this denomination, blah, blah, blah, and really, that, that still, I think it always has, and it's still kind of pisses me off, because I'm like, we think God can be confined to like our own ideas and our own ways of thinking. And we're scared that like, you know, if we do something that's too much outside of this line that we've defined that like, somehow God won't be present, or Jesus won't be present. But God is much bigger than, Well, thankfully, God is bigger than being a white man, or being a man or having any gender, or all the genders. God is bigger than all our biases, and our what all the ways that God has been made in the image of the powerful. And so using expanding our imagination by learning from work that is happening that is centered on justice and liberation, by the people who are affected is where Jesus is, it doesn't matter if there's no use of the word Jesus or talk of Jesus, like Jesus is there. And I think if we get more behind that, as churches as Christian communities, people of faith, who maybe are have tenuous or complicated relationships with church, we would find Jesus in a lot of new ways and I honestly, have met Jesus, the most in places like the Downtown Eastside or like, on public transit, like places where you don't, that are not considered necessarily holy or special places. That's where you meet people who... where you are encountered by God.
Trixie
Yeah, I think on that, when you think about when you just said, where you where you have met Jesus, the most, I think, for me, is always around the table eating, eating together. For four years, I worked as a community connection coordinator, and part of the role is really cooking and eating and sharing food with our neighbors. It just sounds so simple, but that's what we did weekly and, and I feel like every Wednesday night is where I feel like I encountered Jesus, I see Jesus in all the people that come in the volunteers and eating together in the messiness, and the sharing and the laughing and the crying. And that's where I felt really, like fed, like, both physically, but also like, emotionally and spiritually. And so that's something that, yeah, I need to continue remind myself, like, where do we see Jesus, and what it means when we are surrounded by people who love Jesus. And that's kind of, you know, the neighbors, the friends, the strangers, the newcomers that I work with. And so, yeah, that's a that's a, I feel like that way it frees my mind of this white image of white Jesus. Mm hmm.
Maria
So now that we've deconstructed a bunch of stuff, and had a lot of opinions about a lot of stuff, and I'm wondering, where, what are other depictions of Jesus that we've come across? How are we pushing against this idea of white Jesus in more like practical ways? And how can we continue to work to decolonize our idea of what the gospel is, and yeah, how do we how do we live with a more holistic understanding of who God is?
Trixie
Yeah, I think part of me, first of all, it's definitely a journey. Like it's totally a process of unlearning and relearning. And it's continuous it's not just like a linear journey. It's a in some ways, very circular. For me. So one of the things I'm reading or one of the many things I'm reading I think, to help me free my mind, this white Jesus is a lot around. I've been reading some Asian feminist theology, some black liberation theology, and most currently right now is some Latino liberation theology so just seeing Jesus in in so many different cultural contexts, which totally changes how I see Jesus also and and both in like words and knowing the languages and the history and the culture and and how different people of color look at liberation theology from their, from a place of struggle from place of oppression to this place of freedom, which I'm like, Yes, yes, I can relate this, I can see how Jesus is right in the middle of it and walking alongside with you. And you're not just trying to chase after Jesus. And so those are been really helpful and free my mind and image by by really learning and growing and listening to, um to people who, yeah, who see Jesus in their everyday life in their culture, and and continue trying to reclaim that from the white dominant power.
Maria
Mhmm. Yeah, I think for me, I, unfortunately, most of the theological stuff that I've read is written by white men.
Trixie
Yep, yep.
Maria
A lot of CS Lewis and Henri Nouwen and, and, you know, the list could go on and on, because that's kind of the dominant voice in the theological world. But for me, a lot of my interactions with Christ and with the saints, and with just kind of the cloud of witnesses, if we want to use that term, is most often in iconography. So that's where I go to kind of unpack this idea of whiteness being the norm. So when I work on my own icons, if I'm working on a saint that we don't actually know what they looked like, I will err on the side that they were a person of color. So I just did a print of Saint Perpetua who's like, my fav saint. Right now, she's a dear friend, a lot of the depictions of her she was she was a first century Christian, early, early church, and a lot of the depictions of her are as a black woman. And so I decided to continue in that lineage and follow along in that tradition and make her black. And then in the same way, working on Asian iconography, and even thinking of Jesus as a refugee, like, what would he look like, as a refugee in Canada? Like, where can we find his face, in the community around us. And it's still, it's unfortunate that if you want to find something that's not white, you have to in iconography, you have to specify, like, if if I just type in Jesus icon, it's going to be white. If I want something else, I've got to specify it. And hopefully, as more artists create more diverse work, that'll become less of a thing. And so generalized searches will actually result in diverse depictions, but we're not there yet. Hopefully, one day,
Celine
and what might help us get there... Well, Maria, and I are dreaming up a some kind of art collective that would be about kind of exactly this, like, I was gonna say unwhitening super weird. Well, decolonizing and re colorizing.
Trixie
Ooo. I like that.
Celine
Christ and and depictions of the Divine and so we would be pulling together our own art as well as other artists who would be interested BIPOC artists who would want to contribute their own work. And also, one idea that I had was to have kind of an image library, of other artists work, so to collect, because there's a lot being made right now, especially, like Maria was mentioning so that way people can access it easily. And there's no excuse, you know,
Maria
Yeah, the more accessible, diverse depictions of the Divine and of saints and of Jesus are, the less of an excuse there is for people to continue to perpetuate this idea of whiteness being divine.
Trixie
Mmhmm.
Maria
Yeah.
Celine
So we can add to that.
Maria
It's about time. Yeah,
Trixie
I think part of that because image is so powerful, right, as both of you have mentioned like, and that continued to access and be able to see and to reimagine that is to have decent conversation, and some of them will be really uncomfortable conversation, particularly if you're talking with your friends, but it's so important. And I think that is part of freeing our mind is to ask, and ask these hard questions to deconstruct to be critical of what we have learned, and how do we unlearn? And that is going to be a very tenuous process, as I have gone through, but yet at the same time, it's so freeing when we can openly talk about what we have learned, how can we do better? And how can we do better in solidarity with people and particularly encourage artists like both of you, which I'm so grateful, I'm friends with both of you and can Yeah, can can see art through your eyes. And, and for me, I think that is that is such a gift to do that together.
Maria
I think it it would be curious, this is more just an open pondering and it's hard to answer because we are diasporic Asians in North America. But when we were planning this episode, I texted my mom and asked her what her image of God is. And she said that it was a kind faced old white man with
Celine
She said caucasian
Maria
Yeah, caucasian with hair on his face. Yeah, just like a very classic white God depiction. And she, like she joined the church, she converted into Pentecostal Christianity in Taiwan. And like, Where did that image come from for her? And so I would be curious about in less white communities, like in Christian communities in Taiwan, and Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, and really anywhere else. What are people doing there? What are artists doing there to kind of reclaim their idea of who God is apart from this North American culture that we find ourselves in?
Celine
Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm sure it's happening in so many places, too, right? Because like the new generations of people who are growing up and asking, like, why is this considered normal? Or why is this considered? Why is this the dominant image of God? Because young people, I feel young people ask questions about, like, history and why. Yeah, how did things come to us? And why did we learn them the way that they that we learned them? Like, it's same my parents same, similar to Maria, like, my mom grew up Catholic and my dad Anglican, in both their upbringings in their respective Christian traditions, like depictions of God, whether it was art, or like, yeah, in the church settings, or the people that, again, were the head of those dominations, or whatever, like, we're white men. So like tracing the history of not just colonization and colonialism on Turtle Island or North America, but also like, starting to learn and and then so you can reclaim right to learn the history of how did Jesus get to, like to Asia and to... It was through missionaries and imperialism. And so all the ways that white Jesus came to these places, it was also about where how power came and control in some way, whether it wasn't direct colonization, maybe it's cultural imperialism, or whatever. Yeah. But asking those questions, because then asking that question opens up another question, which I heard the first time at a conference called Mystic Soul, which was a conference for specifically for BIPOC people surrounding faith and activism and healing. It was amazing. It was one of the only places I've been, where most people there weren't white. And it was one of the most like healing restorative spaces that I've experienced. But one of the questions they asked there was, I think it was something like what happened? Or who were your ancestors before they were wounded? Or something like that?
Maria
Oh,
Celine
Yeah, I didn't phrase it right, I have to say, I'm trying to think of like, the way it was phrased because it just like,
Maria
Even the way you phrased.
Celine
But just it hit me really hard. And I was like, oh, cuz even though, you know, my ancestors, for example, that I'm thinking of practicing, like Chinese folk religion, for example, and honoring that honoring the ancestors in particular ways that was taken away from them by Christianity. And that way of being in community with the village was taken away, because they weren't allowed to do those things and be Christian at the same time. And so for me, that was the answer. That was who they were before, like the wound came with Christianity, right. And so then if I'm going to try to heal my, my own kind of faith journey, and like, reclaim my, my version of the Christian tradition, which isn't just my version, but a more just and liberated version, I hope, then, you know, I can look to, for me, at least I can look to those ancestors for inspiration. And for and with gratitude too, but I can ask, like, what can I do to honor you? And some of those things for me are integrating like, traditional or contemplative practices with prayer, for example. So incense, which is also an Anglican thing, but it's also a Chinese folk religion, or Chinese folk kind of custom. And when my Popo, my grandma on my mom's side passed away, I lit incense in front of a picture of her and I kind of I put food items in front of her, which is something you would do if you go to the temple to honor their honor your ancestor who was passed. And so I did those things as a way to kind of, yeah, remember her and respect her in a prayerful way, and also kind of in a cultural way, and it brought me It helped me grieve in a much more deeper embodied way than if I were to simply like, say, a prayer, you know. And so I'm thankful that I'm starting to explore that part of my own history and ancestry and, and learn more about experiencing God or experiencing the divine or a spiritual life, hand in hand with you know, being a Jesus follower.
Maria
That is, like so beautiful and so radical.
Trixie
Yeah,
Maria
It shouldn't be that radical.
Celine
No, I want other people to do this. And I know, it's probably this controversial thing, right? But I want to challenge the controversy because, you know, when people talk about when Christians talk about syncretism, for example, right, it's always I think, when I've read stuff. It's like a fear of mixing the idea of God, which they think is a pure idea of God. It's always white Jesus, it's always this particular doctrine.
Maria
And its incredibly limited.
Celine
With something dangerous or something transgressive or different. And Jesus and God, as we've just talked about, depicting Jesus and God, in ways that have been mixed with the dominant culture has been happening for the entire history of Christianity, right? Well definitely maybe not the very early church. And so actually, when we're finding new ways, or old, old ways of expressing who God and Jesus are, that means something to our own cultures or our own backgrounds and ancestries. That's a way of I think getting closer to who God is, right?
Trixie
Yeah,
Maria
Yeah.
Trixie
Yeah, that just challenges me because I think that's part of my own, like identity, grow growing in that information and rediscovering like, who, who I am, and, and who are my ancestors. And I think part of this whole journey has helped me connect to God and grow deeper in my faith by learning who I am and where, where my tribe who are my people who are my community, who am I connected with, right in relationship with Jesus, and not in separation, in this hierarchical dominant power that have always been taught by, by we're rooted in our own culture and our own identity and our own family. I think that Yeah, what you just said, is, is so true, I feel like we can have a deeper and richer sense of who Jesus is.
Maria
And I think people forget. So this makes me think of when Celine, when you were talking about burning incense in remembrance of your Popo, it makes me think of the very early church, like, you know, first couple 100 centuries of the church and how they like when saints died, st being a believer, quote, unquote, when they died, it was really really common practice to go to their grave regularly and celebrate communion like at their gravesite with them, and like how is that any different from lighting incense and putting food out for an ancestor? You know, like, so somehow one practice is demonized and another practice is held up as tradition. Like how much more holistic could our understanding of God be if we just blended the two?
Trixie
Integrated?
Maria
Yes,
Trixie
Yes. (outro music)
Trixie
Resetting the table is produced by Emma Renaerts and the intro music is by Sunia and Paul Gibbs. If you like what this podcast is about, consider supporting us on patreon patreon.com/resettingthetable. Patreon contributions will help us honor the labor of our guests in showing up and sharing their stories. Funds we raise will go towards speaker honourariums as well as making our podcasts more sustainable long term. We value Amplifying Voices of color and we hope you do too. (outro music)
Maria
For now, Doxia!
Trixie
Xie xie.
Celine
Thanks. And see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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