Maria
Hey everyone and welcome to resetting the table, expanding imagination around race, place and faith for our collective liberation. I'm Maria Mulder.
Celine
I'm Celine Chuang.
Trixie
And I'm Trixie Ling.
Celine
We host this podcast from unseeded musqueam. Squamish and Tsleil-Wathuth territory, otherwise known as Vancouver, Canada. Acknowledging the land is one way, we want to commit to decolonization and begin each episode in a good way, expressing solidarity with the indigenous struggle for rights, reparations, and sovereignty.
Maria
Today, we're talking about a topic that I am particularly excited about: body hair and beauty standards, and how we are policed differently based on our race and whether we choose to follow or opt out of social norms and standards. And just to note that because of the pandemic, we're recording on zoom, so the sound quality will probably not be perfect. And we thank you for bearing with us.
Maria
Where do we want to start?
Maria
So many ways to start,
Trixie
start us off Maria.
Maria
Okay.
Celine
Body hair, body hair.
Maria
So I think one of the reasons why I am particularly excited to talk about body hair is because I have had quite the journey myself of being really repulsed by my body hair growing up, and, you know, going through puberty and feeling all of those pressures to change my body and make it into something that was acceptable to the outside world. And then later kind of discovering this liberation in growing in relationship with my body hair, and really like, it has changed the way that I have perceived myself. So anyway, I don't know if either of you have similar experiences or not?
Celine
Well, I think I remember, one of the first times I think that I felt shame was around body hair. Like I'm trying to remember what it was, and I think I was in, I don't know if it was Elementary, or junior high, probably junior high, cuz I'm like, I wouldn't have had a lot of leg hair in elementary school. But I remember that. I don't know if you experienced this growing up with Asian moms. But like, my mom doesn't shave because she has like, no hair on her body. Like, she grew up on a tropical island. And so I have more hair than her even though I have her genes. My dad's also very hairless. And so she never taught me how to shave or to remove any kind of hair. And when, like, the first time that I remember feeling like pressure or shame around something my body was doing, I think it was the fact that other people like other girls, the same age as me, we're already starting to shave their legs. I think that was mostly leg shaving at that point. And I don't think we even hit puberty yet. Like this was quite young. But they started shaving their legs. And I could see like how smooth their legs were. And then they were the sometimes people like would talk about, like, how they shave their legs or like, what their method was, or whatever. And I just remember, I had not done it yet, right? So I had this feeling of like, I'm not doing this right, this thing that's supposed to be right and correct for my body to fit into this idea of like, what it means to grow up or to be a girl or whatever it was. Yeah, so that's one of the strongest early recollections I have are in my body and shame around my body.
Trixie
Mm hmm. I Oh, my goodness, I was gonna say, just as you're saying that I feel like all these memories are coming back to me. And I think what struck me is that I totally felt that way. And I think that was one of the my first maybe sign of the consciousness of cultural difference even because I moved a lot growing up, you know, I born in Taiwan, moved to Singapore, and moved to the US, and then moved to Canada. But one of my clear memory of that pressure and the cultural difference of again, like my parents never talked about shaving or anything like this before, but it was definitely in school, middle school, or junior high, when particularly the white girls around me were talking about shaving, and particularly shaving their legs or even armpits. And that was, in some ways, so new to me. And I felt that pressure, but also the shame like, why, why, why didn't I know this. I feel like I was definitely missing something and that, you know, in order to want to fit in as we do and assimilate as immigrants and I felt that pressure to even like, go buy, you know, a razor, which I've never really bought it before. And that kind of just like confusion for me of like, is this what it means to fit in is this what beauty means, particularly in the Canadian North American standards, because that was not what I was taught growing up. And so I think that was one of that sign that Ooh, there is a difference particularly a cultural difference in understanding about body hair or even talking about it or not talking about it. That is something that I was very aware of and not knowing what to do but trying to fit in.
Maria
Yeah, I have this really so for me, I had a lot have shame surrounding my body from a really young age, because of weight, like my relationship with my weight. So shaving my legs was more kind of a, an attempt to like gain power and control back over my body that I felt like I couldn't control or that I had a bad relationship with. So it was kind of this double edged sword of like, not actually having any feelings about the hair on my legs, like, I don't have a lot of hair naturally. Yeah, genetically, I kind of the same as you, Celine. Both of my parents don't really, aren't super hairy. And so I'm not super hairy. So, yeah, like, if I was just by myself thinking about the hair on my body, as an 11 year old, I didn't have any feelings at all. But I knew that it was a way to be more beautiful. And it was a way to be more socially acceptable and to be more good. And I have this like really strong memory of being at a swimming pool when I was around the same age, maybe 11. And even though we were in Richmond, which for those of you who live locally, is very heavily East Asian populated. Most of the people at the pool at that time were white, I don't know how or why that was. And there was this mom and daughter, the daughter was a teenager, the mom was maybe in her mid 40s, and an Asian one of the only other Asian women who were there that day, she ran past them. And she had a significant amount of armpit hair. And the reaction that those two white folk had was of like, utter shock and disgust, like whole body reactions to this woman running past them at the pool. And I remember being really confused and being like, oh, what's wrong, like, Is someone hurt, like, Did something bad happen, and then I looked and I realized, Oh, it's just like an Asian woman, and she has a lot of armpit hair. And that must be what they're reacting to. And so it kind of like, created this deep seeded, like, armpit hair is bad. Like, if you want to be acceptable, you take it away.
Celine
If you want to be accepted, acceptable in the eyes of especially like white woman and kind of this idea of white femininity, which is a tyranical kind of idea, right? Yeah. Yeah, actually, that brought up something else. Also at a pool for me where I just remember that there are some, I don't know if I'd call them popos, like they weren't grannies yet, but they were older asian women, I'm guessing Chinese, I'm trying to remember, probably East Asian. And they were they had no shame around nudity. So they were like showering in the public shower part of the pool. And they were like, getting in there scrubbing all their parts and like getting clean or whatever. And other people were so uncomfortable. The other woman, like we're so uncomfortable. It just yeah, it brings up again, that cultural difference where it's not just like disgust and shame around body hair, but also bodies in general, like, yeah.
Trixie
And I think that kind of like, I feel like I never thought so deep about body hair. But that really touches on like, what our standards are and how living in Canada how that's tied with, like racism and white supremacy, dictating what is beautiful, what's acceptable. And and how, if you're not that how we have to try to assimilate. And I think when I think about it that way, it's like, wow, like, it's it comes down to, again, you know, things around power, privilege, control, and, and how we operate in those spaces. And particularly, for me, you know, as an immigrant and a settler, like, how do I operate in those spaces when they're so tied to to racism, but it's not something we talk about, right? And something that sometimes we don't even make those connections and the policing, I think, of particular color bodies or white bodies? Yeah, that's something that has really struck me, as I think deeper about this issue.
Maria
Yeah, so I'm reading a book right now called White Tears, Brown Scars by Ruby Komal. And it's not about body hair, per se, but it's about how white feminism has failed women of color kind of across the board and how it has weaseled its way just into the the norm of society and how people don't really question it anymore. And one thing that she has been really articulate about in the book is how womanhood is only full womanhood in the eyes of society, if it is white womanhood. And so as women who are not white, or who are separated from whiteness, in whatever ways, our bodies are policed at a in a harsher way, or we're held to a higher standard, because we're already like late getting to the gate in being full full women, because of the fact that we're not white. And so this kind of like makes me think of even black women and the, in many places the cultural expectation that they would have, quote unquote, like white textured hair or to get a weave instead of keeping their natural hair. And that's just an extra step to get them closer to womanhood, even though because they are black, they will never be fully regarded as women in in kind of like the general eyes of society. Super interesting,
Celine
Mhmm Yeah, yeah. And I think it's tied a lot too to the gender binary, right. And kind of heteronormativity in a lot of ways. Like white womanhood I mean, because you so often see, reactions against when people of color are transgressing that, that iteration like that idea of white femininity, or femininity, like standard and quotes, feminine beauty. So yeah, like trans women of color, or like trans women of color with hair who don't shave or like police their, you know, don't control or police their body in a way that is expected by white womanhood is seen as something so disturbing, to white womanhood. And so that's why I think there's so much hatred that comes out of particular ways particular forms of Yeah, white womanhood and also white feminism, especially you see this like a lot with trans exclusionary feminism, which is largely white women, right, white middle class woman. Yeah. So it's kind of like it's not just as threatening of, or it's it's that transgressing that in the like Judith Butler idea of transgressing is a dangerous act, right, because it kind of calls into question the whole oppressive structure of the gender binary of the whole idea of gender. So I think that's what maybe that's why white womanhood and white femininity standards are so, so rigid, and so yeah, so heavily policed, because they're also protecting that right. Mm hmm.
Maria
Yeah, it'sprotecting the idea that white womanhood actually has power. Like, if you, if you question, the aspects that make womanhood, womanhood, if those become blurry or ambiguous in any way, then the idea that, that white people or white women are the most privileged and should be the most privileged, is then automatically ambiguous as well, which, you know, for all of those people who want to hold on to that power. It's not a good thing.
Trixie
Mm hmm. I remember, brings me back, this was a while back ago, but I was in Grand Rapids for a conference. And we had some time between the conference. So we walked around, I walked around with my friend, and we ended up at this museum. Actually, it was super interesting museum. And there was a special exhibition on at that time, and actually about hair actually interesting enough, and black expressions. I don't remember everything, but I feel like some of the huge life size pictures, and that's showing of like hair as power, particularly for black people that really struck me of how, yeah, in terms of compared to like, the standard that I think we're often given around, like, What is beauty, according to whiteness, this exhibition was showing the opposite of that, particularly, you know, in my learning journey, particularly like about places of belonging, particularly black people, and hair salons and barber shop, like these are the places where it's like, their spaces, and that and the hair and just how you do your hair. It's is that sign of beauty and power, and I think part of the addressing systems of oppression and colonization is is how, yeah, like how people, some people are forced to cut their hair force to kind of, you know, change how they look, based on the standard, this faulty standard of beauty, this oppressive standard beauty we have set out in society. And I just think watching I mean, looking at all the different pictures of the exhibition was really a powerful sign for me to be reminded of like, also, things like touching people's hair. And you know, those kind of small little action, how degrading that can be for and totally not respectful when, especially when people make comments. So yeah, it really challenged me I remember that exhibition it still lingers in my mind, obviously, but it also shows me like the power and the identity of particularly black people and their hair and who they are, and how proud they are, and the beauty that they uphold. So that was like powerful expression that left that left with me, and I still think about it now.
Celine
And I think you talk about something important to Trixie right, which is that beauty standards and policing bodies like all of that, those things are not just kind of patriarchal norms, but they're also colonial and they come from a lineage. And they're so tied with, with racism and white supremacy from pre modern times, right? Like, even joining enlightenment when before race was kind of invented. It was like, as I was reading, I'm reading a book by Cornel West. Now early Cornel West called Prophecy Deliverance: An Afro American Revolutionary Christianity. It's great. It's like vintage Cornel West, he has a great big afro on the back, which is amazing. But for one of the chapters, it's called a genealogy of modern racism. I think I have that, right. Anyway, he talks about how, yeah, the idea of white supremacy and racism is, is very much connected to and kind of precipitated on the idea of beauty and how early Western philosophers in during like, say, the Enlightenment era, looking back, you know, at these classical ideals of Greek ideals, right of like, a beauty and proportion, and balance and harmony, all of these things. Yeah, like how that became shaped into, eventually a depiction of whiteness and kind of a normalizing of whiteness as this standard, this ultimate standard of beauty. And how beauty wasn't just about aesthetics, right? It was about divinity, right? It was about like, what is the closest to God, the Creator, and then who is farthest away from that, which was back then they would, they would talk about, like Ethiopians, or like those darker skinned people before, you know, before black was a word that was used. And then you see from there kind of like, the dividing up and categorizing of humans into races. And this was all done by like, white Western philosopher dudes. And they were making it up like it wasn't. And you see kind of the way of categorizing and creating a hierarchy, which became like a racial hierarchy. So so much of when we talk about beauty, right isn't, isn't just like, what do we see? And like, what do people find appealing, or personal preference or whatever, right? It comes from, like this really long, complicated lineage. That's so tied to power and whiteness. And we talked about a little bit before we recorded this episode about, like, on these lands, in residential schools, how the indigenous kids had their hair cut, right all cut short in the same style, as a form of one of the ways of cultural genocide, that cultural genocide was perpetuated. And so it's very much part of the colonial agenda as well, to kind of assimilate everyone into a, into a particular mold. Mm hmm.
Trixie
Yeah. And especially on that, as I'm reading more and learning more, particularly, indigenous boys, when if they have long hair and braids, and cutting those off, it's also often in some in some particular culture, that, that, that practice is kind of like someone have passed away in your family in that time of mourning, I've learned I read is that when you cut your hair off, so I can't imagine how traumatic it is, you know, when you're taken away from your family, from your land from your community, and put into residential school, and having your hair cut off and not knowing it is a form of death, you know, that separation? And and as a way of like, these days, and what's encouraging for me, is that as we continue to do the work of decolonization, it's interesting, as I was reading a couple articles, how now hair and keeping your hair and keeping long hair, particularly for indigenous people, indigenous men, actually, in particular, it's a sign of resistance. It's a resistance to that colonization to that form of control, and supremacy and just, yeah, it's honoring their culture, their practice who they are, again, because it's part of your identity. I think that's the thing. I'm reflecting more and more how hair is not just like a fashion style, it's actually part of who we are. our culture, our ancestor, our history. Yeah, I feel really grateful to kind of learn more about this and seeing how that can be a form of resistance, which is powerful.
Maria
Mm hmm. Yeah. And like, I don't want us to forget that this type of cultural genocide is not super old, right? Like, it's super, super recent, I was listening to a podcast episode of Reclaiming My Theology with Brandy Miller. And she was interviewing Randy Woodley, who's an indigenous theologian and scholar down in the States. And he like talks really openly about how when he was young, his braids were cut off. And so like, this is literally just generations that are alive today. This is still happening to people, people's bodies are being policed, and their hair is being cut, and it's Oh, no good.
Trixie
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think as I'm learning more about like, getting In Touch and getting reconnected back and rooting myself back in my own culture, East Asian culture and history and like, learning about when Yeah, particularly the large mass immigration of Chinese people to to Canada to NBC locally and how back in the days particularly men, also their hairs were being and braids were being cut off as part of the law to, to enforce that kind of assimilation. So it's not only indigenous people, when and I think that really strikes it home, particularly if I think of my own like culture and people who who are also have suffered that kind of forced assimilation and humiliation. You know,
Maria
I wonder also to about the policing of hair and body hair also being a very specific way that the Protestant evangelical church kind of enforces gender binary. And the reason why I say this is because I just kind of remembered when I was, so I went through a phase of like, ultra conservative Baptist-ness. When I was about 12 to 14. So like super long skirts, super long hair, no worldly music, quote, unquote, only classical music.
Celine
Worldly!
Maria
Yeah, Yeah. It's, it was a time. And I remember like, questioning. So my best friend at the time, she was kind of the main, the major influence that swung me over to this ultra conservative way of life. And I remember questioning her and being like, why is it that like, the girls are expected to have super long hair, and the boys aren't. And she was like, that's just the way it is, like, boys have to be masculine. And girls have to be feminine. And like, it was just, ah, like, I wish I could remember her exact words, because it was so stark. And so black and white. And just so like, there wasn't any room for anything to be any different. And so even just thinking, like, yeah, if you have a faith where gender binary is really, really strong, a way of enforcing that gender binary is also then making that physical and making it so that there's a very expected way to look if you fall in each category. And if you stray outside of that category, somehow that is sinful, or deviant. Hmm. I don't really know where I was going with that. Just mini rant about ultra conservative Baptist-ness.
Celine
Yeah, yeah, no, totally ties into protecting the gender binary and kind of heteronormativity. And you see that too, on, like a larger context, again, like historically, right, when kind of gender, the gender binary and heteronormativity were exported to different countries through colonialism and imperialism, so that like now, you know, it becomes so complicated and often heartbreaking when now like, say, during pride, or like any kind of queer space, which is a mostly white space. And then people of color kind of, they have more obstacles to participating in those spaces. And then you get this kind of false sense, or some people get maybe a false sense that, or I've heard people kind of position, the blame for that on like the immigrant community, or the people like the culture the person comes from, right, and that's why they're aren't accepted, or they can't fully participate in queer spaces the way that they are. But really, often that goes back right to:no, that culture was colonized by, you know, whichever European power and so then internalized these ideas of policing gender and the gender binary and gender expression, and then are passing that on right to their kids, then, who then tried to, in resisting that are, are not just resisting something like their parents' expectations, but really, centuries of a form of trauma, right, for caused by colonization. And there's so much more than just like the one layer. Yeah. Anyway, it's really I'm not I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I just I know, I've read some pieces about queer people of color being like in largely white spaces and kind of like, the forms of racism that come from that. And then kind of like, conversations around cultural differences and stuff like that, without kind of thinking about the long perspective and the historical perspective. Yeah, and how sometimes those spaces whether they're queer or not, can very much perpetuate kind of the same attitudes of just like whiteness being the norm or being Yeah, center. Yeah.
Maria
Yeah. Well, because there's always this caveat of, oh, you're different. You're interesting. I'm curious about you. But all of that comes from like, basically what they're saying is you're not white, and like that is the part that sets you apart from the rest of us.
Celine
And it reminds me too have I've seen some of those articles, you know, online that are like, kind of explore all the different versions of non binary gender identity that were pre colonial. Because often people will say, who are kind of opposed to the idea of someone being non binary or like, Oh, this is like such a recent thing. You're making it all up or you know, whatever
Maria
I call BS.
Celine
Or they'll say, Oh, it's like, contemporary construct by like, these white queer people. And you're like, no, like, actually, this is an ancient thing that was then attempted to be erased, you know, by colonization, and dominant domination and imperialism and all the forms of power and control. I mean, it was failed, right? Like now people are really finding nourishment and sustenance for resisting the gender binary and resisting white supremacy and colonialism through often reclaiming those identities or learning about them through, like their own cultural backgrounds, or from others. So I think there's like, now, it's kind of a beautiful in a way, there's a really beautiful thing about hearing about this identities and how people are finding them again, it's like, oh, it didn't work. Like those people weren't erased, right? They're still here.
Maria
It's funny how that happens. When identity is involved. You can't just erase people's identities.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
Yep.
Trixie
And I think part of what you just said like as I am thinking about that, yeah, the connection to identity that tied to that, as we're in this process of unlearning, relearning, and really reclaiming is also thinking about, then if it's part of who we are, you know, we have to think about those questions, kind of like, why do we do it? Whether we keep our hair or not? And who are we doing it for, right for ourselves, or for a partner or for someone else? Or assimilating into the, you know, dominant culture or context like that is, if that's tied to who we are? Those are the questions that we actually should be asking, which, I mean, oftentimes, we don't ask those questions, because we don't maybe even think about it that deeply about hair. So I think that's really we should be prompting ourselves and each other to ask those hard questions and that collectively moving toward more liberation is actually be who we are, be fully who we are, and not subjugated to like the dominant oppressive culture and structures we're around surrounded by.
Maria
Yeah, yeah. Like what started me on my, like, body hair journey, if we want to call it that, is I like one: I was super lazy, like, I was, like, man, so much time goes into removing the hair from my body, like, Why? Why am I spending so much time doing this painful thing? Like to my body? So that was kind of one aspect that made me question why I was doing what I was doing. And then the other other aspect was, I didn't want society to control me, like, I didn't want the general culture to speak so strongly into how I decided to be with my body. And so for me, like my journey started as like a very reactionary, kind of resisting the status quo type type of practice. And so for a long time, I was really, really uncomfortable with my body hair, but I kept it because I was like, No, I like want to be against the status quo. And then eventually, that shifted to where I love my body hair now, and I'm so thankful that I have it and I like I'm actually quite fond of it. Like, I really do love it. But yeah, ultimately, like it doesn't really matter what you do, whether you choose to take all your hair off, or keep all of it or like do anything in between, or if you decide to change your mind every once in a while, like ultimately, you should be doing it for you. Because for one person, the ultimate act of self love could be going and getting your legs waxed and like having silky smooth, smooth skin and feeling super luxurious and fancy and like, that's super great. But then for another person, you know, the ultimate self love could be letting your armpit hair grow out a little bit and kind of discovering who you are, with a slightly different body than you had been living withbefore.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Maria
I love it so much, guys. Body hair!
Trixie
Oh, yeah.
Maria
So body hair is also a biological sign of adulthood. And I wonder why the expectation for women is that we remain hairless and therefore in a way, infantilized?
Trixie
I feel like media, at least for me, has played a huge part of like, and I say media both like visually like in movies and shows, but also obviously magazines and kind of what we consume of what again, going back to standard What is beauty. And I feel like in those pictures that you know, are in those images that we consume, of what is beauty, again, very much defined by white supremacy, the standards of whiteness is like you you're really clean shaven. And that's beauty. And when you when you keep seeing that, that often is kind of at least for me, you know, again movies and magazines, just kind of really well groomed or just really clean shaven. That I think is what the false connotations like this is what a beautiful adult woman looks like, again, maybe professionally looking and grown up and mature, all these things that we assigned to. And that, I think, yeah, give us set up really dangerous expectation that's tied in with like, what is innocent or what is pure, like these kind of thoughts that we correlate together? That is not, that's ultimately false. Because it really does create that binary. So yeah, that's one thing that I think we do need to really address and talk about what we see and how we're represented, and particularly for women of color, how we're not represented as much in media, and when we are it's, how are we representing beauty? Right? In this different cultural standards?
Celine
Yeah. Although, although now, I think, Trixie, like, there's a pretty cool moment happening in like a modeling or fashion, where there's this movement toward more representation, like more diverse representation in terms of fatter bodies, you know, more black and brown bodies, or gender queer, or trans bodies being presented in like fashion and beauty. So I think that that is cool to see happening. Because, you know, when we were young, I mean, before the internet, right? Like, I don't know, Maria, maybe you remember, I can't remember how, if you were born before,
Maria
I'm pretty young guys.
Celine
Okay, we're all gonna kind of like date, how old we are. But like, I remember when the internet happened, like what it was born, which was, I think, around the same time I was born, but then I didn't interact with the version of the internet that you could actually do stuff with.
Maria
Yeah, other than early internet was kind of useless for young folks.
Celine
Yeah. So, you know, we would see it in like magazines, right, or like on TV, back in the old days? And that would, that would be out of the question, I think, you know, like to see the amount of diverse bodies that we now see. And like, especially independent or, like ethical or sustainable, although not all, but brands of fashion that are also starting to trend, like there's more of a demand and more of an expectation, I think, a fashion and style and beauty brands to do better. Yeah. But that would have been so unheard of. You know, I still remember the first time I saw an Asian model, like in a magazine. And how that was like: what?
Trixie
Yes.
Celine
So yeah, so that's really cool to witness that right now.
Maria
Totally.
Celine
But Maria, going back to your question, I think it ties into what we have kind of touched on the idea of femininity and white womanhood and how that is so rigidly enforced. how that ties into kind of body hair removal, and kind of purity, I think it is connected to Yeah, and not just gender norms and the gender binary, but also to the very Puritan like Protestant evangelical idea of purity culture, and how, because like, we think about, you know, even in Europe, like there's all the kind of jokes and like stereotypes that are, I think, rooted in truth about the fact that there's less shame around body hair in Europe. And like, you know, we've talked about colonization and stuff. So clearly, there's something that's different from Europe. and here if there's not as much pressure to, for women to shave, and present their body in certain ways in Europe. So why kind of this North America?
Maria
Europe that is not the UK.
Celine
Right. Yes. Yeah. Why this particularly North American form of so rigidly enforcing, like the removal of body hair and the presentation of femininity? And I think it is connected to this very North American, yeah, kind of puritan rooted purity culture and how that is so has led to so much of how we think of the controlling of and presenting of women's bodies in particular ways. You know, and you think of the really creepy and messed up purity balls that still happen.
Maria
Yeah,
Celine
I don't know if you know about these.
Maria
I know about these. They're, oh, that makes me want to throw up even just thinking about it.
Trixie
I do not know about this, but it's like, I don't want to know,
Maria
For anyone who doesn't know what a purity ball is. It's basically when young women, mostly white, and their fathers, like literally hold a ball to celebrate the fact that they have dedicated themselves to staying sexually pure until they're married.
Maria
And it's like,
Celine
It's so creepy. and it's very much like, it kind of feels like a wedding ceremony between a daughter and her father, right? Yes, and the idea that she Like she belongs to her. Father and she's this pure woman Oh, not woman, I guess like girl who will then be saved for marriage with presented to this other man.
Maria
She's staying pure until her father can give her to another man.
Celine
Yeah, exactly.
Maria
It is outrageous.
Celine
And it still happens it still I thing that happens. And we will talk much more around a lot more about purity culture in another episode, but I think it is connected, right? Because yes, it's about Yeah, the controlling of women's bodies. And again, that kind of like, keeping women from being Yeah, full women, right from being having agency having autonomy over their own bodies and almost being like, stuck in like this version of dependency and, and childhood in ways, right. Yeah. Which under patriarchy would be like, under the control of your father or under the purview of your father, and then your husband so very much connected?
Maria
Yeah, I have chills.
Trixie
Wow, I feel so disturbed right now.
Maria
As you should Trixie. As you should.
Celine
Go look at photos. It's It's terrifying.
Maria
It is. It's wild. Oh, man. Oh, yeah.
Celine
I mean, so much of it. I say terrifying, like as a joke, but I think so much of it is is really about fear, though, right? Like, it's a fear of not having control or like a fear of, of difference or of deviancy, what you called Maria, right, like the idea that if you, if you cross a particular line, you lose your value, you lose your worth, you lose your What defines you? And that's really sad.
Maria
Yeah, and, and ultimately, like, for those who are in this culture, who practiced this purity culture in like the Protestant Evangelical Church of North America, like, ultimately, I think that shows a deep mistrust in God. Because what you are claiming or trusting in is your ability, and let's say, your daughter's ability to stay pure and good and sinless, as much as possible, so that you will be worth so that you will be of value to God, and that you will be good enough for God. But ultimately, like, that's not what the Bible is all about. Right? Like, it's not about being good enough or being worthy. If anything, it's the complete opposite of that. But yeah, I think, like deep seeded in this need to control is it is a mistrust of our Creator, in wanting to have relationship with us.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
Yeah, I mean, it's really becoming like these white patriarchs who are kind of holding control over their daughters in a certain way. And/or the women who are participating, the white woman that are participating in this very weird, like, purity culture to its maximum sense, like, they are really becoming their own gods, right. Like they're becoming
Maria
Yes,
Celine
the patriachs who make the decisions and, and kind of write the doctrine of what, what is right and what isn't tight. And that's not I mean, that's not really what Christianity is, or like, yeah, the God of Yeah, God of scriptures. But I think that ties into what you know, in Brandy Miller's podcast, she talks about white American folk religion, I think, anyway, it's worth listening to, and we can maybe link it in the description, but the particular forms of Well, I guess it's syncretism. Right? It's like a coming together of different societal ideas and forms of Yeah, dominance and power with and then kind of like those appropriating the idea of Christianity into and then using that as kind of a weapon. Yeah, which I think we unfortunately see a lot. Yeah, either whether in the States or here, right. Like, how Christianity is not about being invited into the deliberative and transformative and restorative healing of ourselves and one another in the world, but rather kind of it becomes an instrument to fulfill a particular agenda.
Maria
Yeah, and ultimately, there's like, huge idolatry that is incorporated into that right? Because then purity becomes an idol. Marriage becomes an idol, sex and sexuality becomes an idol. All of these things that should not hold so much weight in someone's life become these like ultimate heavy, important things.
Celine
Yeah,
Maria
That have a lot of control.
Trixie
Mm hmm. Yeah, I feel like one of the kind of adding to all these points of control that one thing that popped into my mind around controls also then like, the things that we buy like industry, that also control us, you know, and the body is as in like, the products right like, which I really have not bought many of them, but like, I know In terms of whether shaving or waxing or all these body hair removal product, that's another form of capitalism and in the form of controlling, like, how do we, you know, we want to appear this way to, to, to the dominant culture. And and yeah, that's that's another form of control that we often don't question or even think about that I think we need to ask these difficult, hard, important questions, as we are talking about control and our bodies, controlling them.
Maria
Yeah, like, I don't think many people realize I did a quick little search on the history of women's leg shaving, like Western white women's leg shaving. Turns out that world war two is to blame, and that the reason why women started to shave their legs as like a very normal thing instead of kind of a fashion fad was because during World War Two, hosiery production, so like tights and stockings, and things basically stopped because everyone was making things to go and kill other people in the war. And so women had to like figure out how to be presentable in public without wearing stockings, and a way to do that was to shave their legs, and then to like, use leg makeup to make it look like they were wearing stockings, and then eventually the leg make up disappeared as well, because of the war, like they weren't allowed to make the makeup anymore. So it came out of like, obviously, they were fulfilling these norms and expectations just in a different way. But then the companies kind of caught on. They were like, Oh, we could make a killing in
Celine
if women always have to shave their legs.
Maria
Yeah, basically. And so since then, basically from the 1940s. In 1968, there was a survey, like a mass survey in the States, and almost 98% of women were regularly shaving their legs by that point. And that was only 20 years from when it had become a norm.
Trixie
Wow.
Maria
Crazy.
Trixie
Yeah. Wow. Wow, I have not thought about what is even, leg hair makeup I that doesn't even seem to compute with me. Yeah, yeah. Can't believe this is the culture we're part of.
Maria
I know, it's just product after product, right? Like, there's a new shaving device, and there's a new wax and like, somehow this razor is gonna not give you ingrown hairs. That's a total lie. And like, this wax, sugar wax is less painful than regular wax. It's just, it goes on and on and on. And I think as we if general society continues to kind of not think about the fact that these norms are being pushed on them, there's just going to be more products every year, more ways to spend money and more pressure to be a certain way, and like it's not gonna stop unless we actually start to question it.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Celine
I think there is some questioning around like, like, now there's more awareness around the detriments for a very like massive understatement of capitalism. And how, you know, we see like how the earth is suffering and like, how we're in this climate crisis, largely because of capitalism, right, connected to, of course, racial capitalism. As Harsha Walia said, "there's no racism without capitalism, and there's no capitalism without race", like, are very much connected. And so I think maybe there's a moment that we are kind of in a moment where there's more questioning around the way that capitalism operates to always have people wanting more, and how people are now realizing like, it's not, there's a limitation, there's an end, right, there's no, we can't just continue to make and make and create so much waste. And like, I think there's more awareness of that, in general, I mean, so maybe I think that is starting to connect the dots for people who are whether they're, you know, purchasers of hair removal, or beauty products, or just other things, right, like the things that we just generally need and, and purchase at stores, like there's more of a zero waste movement happening. And so I think there's like a shift happening, but perhaps it's one that doesn't have all the reference points, like doesn't necessarily think about the ways that consumerism and capitalism are tied to patriarchy, and beauty standards and colonialism, like all of those things are connected.
Maria
Yeah, I think I think I would argue Celine, though, that we are particularly, we see it more clearly because of where we live, and kind of the discourses that we choose to listen to. But I would argue that in a lot of places in Canada and in the States, like it's not even something that's on the table for discussion yet. Or at least, like maybe people are questioning, like the amount of plastic water bottles that they buy, but there's absolutely no concept at all of the canisters of shaving cream that they buy. You know, like, I don't know that in lots of communities. That is the thing that's being thought about yet.
Celine
Yeah, that's true we live in Vancouver.
Maria
Yeah, yeah.
Celine
And also, like, you know, like we were saying about racial capitalism, like some racialized communities are not able to ask these questions, because they're only able to afford particular products or, you know, so it's very much like, in a way a privilege to be able to ask questions about waste and about what products we buy. Yeah.
Maria
Yeah. And and there is privilege in. So for me choosing to opt out of the hair removal system, like as a white adjacent Asian diasporic person, like I can get away with it with much less prejudice or pushback than say, a black woman would be able to. Yeah.
Trixie
Yeah. I mean, I think this is why we're even having this kind of conversation, right? Like, I mean, the title of our podcast is called resetting the table, I feel like this is what we're doing. We're bringing up conversation, bring things to light, and making those points of connection and intersections that often doesn't get talked about, at least not publicly. And so I think this is this for me is like, this is an act of resistance, having this conversation, being openly questioning things, and be able to, yeah, share story, share experience, and kind of put it out there and questioning the system that we're part of. So this is Yeah, for me, this is a sign of hope.
Maria
Yes.
Trixie
Going forward.
Celine
Yeah. And going back to what we said before, if we're talking about body hair, or different, like ways of conforming our bodies, like what are you? What do you do that helps you love your body more? Right, and like some for some people, it might be pushing kind of your own comfort level and like, trying to, like get through the part of discomfort past the place where you've internalized a particular way of seeing beauty, like Maria, and I think I'm kind of like where Maria was.
Maria
It is a journey it takes Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not an overnight. Mm hmm.
Celine
Yeah. And I should, and I've had really, like, I've had positive and transformational moments for myself, by challenging how I present. Because I know that it's like more comfortable for me to do something in a safe way. So for example, like shaving my head, or like not wearing makeup for like a while. And just being like, this is what my body is, this is what I look like, with no bangs, with no hair, with no makeup, whatever. And so I think that can be a really, it can be really fun, even though it can also be really hard way of like learning to love yourself and for other people, makeup, and like hair removal or other. Other things can be also like we said, a way of loving themselves. So I think just asking the questions about why we do the things we do is important and then making informed decisions and making decisions, thinking about the ways that we're able to love our bodies and to present them and do so with intention and care and thought and acceptance right for ourselves in our own bodies and for other bodies around us.
Trixie
Yes, yes, yes.
Maria
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Trixie
On so many levels.
Celine
Resetting the table is produced by Emma Renaerts. And the intro music is by Sunia and Paul Gibbs. If you like what this podcast is about, consider supporting us on patreon at patreon.com/resettingthetable. We think it's really important to amplify voices of color, and we hope you do too. Even a little bit will help us sustain and grow the podcast.
Maria
For now, doxia.
Trixie
Xie xie
Celine
Thanks and see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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