Trixie
Hey everyone, and welcome to resetting the table expanding imagination around race, place and faith for our collective liberation. I'm Trixie Ling.
Celine
I'm Celine Chuang.
Maria
And I'm Maria Mulder, we host this podcast from unceded Musqueum, Squamish and Tsleil Wauthuth territory, otherwise known as Vancouver, Canada. Acknowledging the land is one way we want to commit to decolonization and begin each episode in a good way, expressing solidarity with the indigenous struggle for rights, reparations and sovereignty.
Trixie
Today, we're talking about friendship, intimacy, and finding kin. In a society where romantic relationships are put on a pedestal, we want to elevate and celebrate friendships its meriad forms. In this conversation, we'll talk about our own friendships, representations of friendships and the ways that we can subvert relationship hierarchy. Maybe this looks like public ceremonies or commitments or extending and accepting affection and intimacy and more expansive ways. What are the ways that we can make space for generous friendship and chosen family? Let's get into it.
Celine
So we thought we would start by talking about our own friendships to kind of set the scene on an episode about friendship. So yeah, Maria, you had mentioned a funny story about our friendship. Maybe we can start with that one.
Maria
Sure. About our my lack of faith in our friendship.
Celine
Our first date?
Maria
That's basically... Yeah, I mean, it wasn't bad.
Celine
Well,
Maria
Anyways, so basically, what happened is, you approached me, and you had somehow, maybe you can clarify, you had somehow heard of me through the grapevine of church as like an openly queer person who was still around. Even after some, some, some queer drama...
Celine
Stuff went down.
Maria
Yeah. And you basically approached me and you wanted to go out for coffee or a drink, to kind of talk, and I don't really know what you were hoping to get out of that conversation.
Celine
I think I was just really in a place of a lot of hurt and anger with like, a church and how hurt like, we're friends. And I think I wanted someone to be like, angry with me in some way or something like, someone had to have solidarity and the anger and the hurt. But I think you just weren't in that place at that time. Like,
Maria Mulder
No.
Celine
Which I think you probably had been, but just not then.
Maria
Oh, definitely. I had definitely been Yeah, so yeah, we went to Bandidas. You had some sort of burrito bowl. And they forgot to put the cheese on.
Celine
Oh! I forgot about that!
Maria
I can't remember what I had. But yeah. And basically, I came out of that conversation, really feeling like you were too radical to be a friend with like I that we were just in such different places that I was so maybe emotionally removed from the issues that we were talking about. Because I think a year or two previous I was so deeply kind of in the trauma of the church as a queer person. And a few years after that, like definitely not over it. But I didn't really want to think about it anymore. I was tired. And you had all this energy for justice, and I just I couldn't handle it. So I left that conversation totally thinking that we were going to kind of be acquaintances, maybe have some overlap, but that we weren't actually going to form a friendship at all.
Celine
Yeah. Well, it's funny, because the way you phrased it before, was that I was too radical and intense.
Maria
Yeah. You were so intense!
Celine
Because I was, I mean, I still am radical, but I'm less intense. And I think you're more radical than you were.
Maria
Yeah, it's true.
Celine
But yeah, I think our friendship surprised us. Like we started doing some like volunteer work with youth in the church and like, just started hanging out by proxy, cuz like after that we would hang out and talk about how great they were or like, just talk about our lives--
Maria
Debrief a little bit.
Celine
Yeah, but debriefing and then also just like, like our bi weekly, like every other week, like, hangs, so we got to like, you know,
Maria
Porch hangs.
Celine
Yeah, hang on the porch, smoke cigarettes, drink whiskey and cuddle. Yeah.
Maria
It's so good. It's a good way to form a friendship.
Celine
Yeah. So and then, since then, it's been really become like a really deep and intimate friendship that I'm really grateful for. And actually, it was on one of those porch hangs that we talked about a podcast, which was like, maybe a year ago or more now. So that is one of the places I mean, there are a few places where the podcast was birthed, like, just not gestated. That's not the word Maria helped me
Maria
Conceived?
Celine
Yeah, now it is a baby in the world.
Maria
Yeah.
Celine
But yeah, I think the the total surprise of it is, like a fun part of our friendship story. Yeah. Well, we have a couple stories. It's like we need to like talk about friendship stories.
Trixie
Yes, yes.
Maria
Yeah, totally.
Celine
Trixie do you wanna talk to us about how you know us?
Trixie
I was gonna say that makes me think as I'm like, trying to think back. How did we become friends? I feel like I feel like I can maybe talk more about me and Maria, just because we did become friends through this podcast, and really during COVID time, but I don't know, I'm trying to think back. Me and jyou, Celine. I think it's like little moments of connections because we live in the same neighborhood. And then we have mutual friends, I think. So I don't really know. But I do think that like, the moments I remember you the most is probably through, like eating together. I feel like either eating food or drinking coffee. And I think a lot of my friendship comes through around the table. And I think, at least for me, on my side, I feel like each time you invited me to your house, whether it's for a potluck, like potluck, or you know, hotpot, and, you know, Chinese New Year, all these super special moments. For me, even though you that I feel like maybe you eat more often for me, it's Yeah, not having love, like access in terms of like homemade Chinese food is so special to be able to eat with you and your family and your friends. And so I think those are some of the moments I remember, at least for me, my mind, like just us eating and talking. And you know, and even particularly, I would say, this summer, in particular, sitting outside, on your deck, on your porch and eating together, laughing or crying. And yeah, for me, those are like those, how I feel like I feel connected to you to to those intimate moments of sharing a meal together, and also making coffee for you, because I worked at this cafe this past year before COVID, and you worked just around the corner. So you came in every day, and I really love making coffee for you. And, you know, I actually think around this podcast, the ideas of like, creating a platform to share ideas or voices or stories, and particularly looking at intersections around race place and faith, actually, I think came from all these like, you know, whether you came in coffee, like I feel like a couple times a week, you know, we had these little moments were I'm making your Americano and we had all these ideas. I think that for me is at least in my memory, how it kind of kind of grew this idea. And and and then I think that's when you first mentioned Maria, when we were talking about this podcast.
Celine
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, we were talking about, so we were working together, right? In the Downtown Eastside, yeah, places like you worked at a social enterprise cafe, and I was at a woman's center. So there are some like, definitely a lot of things that I think a lot of sharing of wisdom and sharing of experience, even just through the small interactions, right? Like you would ask me questions about like, the neighborhood, since I've been working there longer. We would talk about the people that we knew and like, how to be in relationship and in friendship with these people in the community. And, and also like your experiences, especially the summer around, um Yeah, racism that you experienced personally, but also like systemic racism and learning around that. We had talked about like, for a while, we were thinking about like an event, like some kind of panel, right, like to share voices. And really, that event became this podcast,
Trixie
Yes.
Celine
Because we realized, like, we don't actually just want to do a one time thing where people like, show up and listen to folks talk. And then like, leave, like we want it to be an ongoing conversation and a place to that an event is, can be really special space. But it's temporary. So I think, eventually, we realized like that we wanted something that could create some form some kind of community for people, right, like a listener community, and that place where people could go, even if that place is kind of like, not a physical place yet, right?
Trixie
Definitely.
Celine
Yeah. Which totally turned into what Maria and I had talked about, which on that porch conversation, I remember, we were talking about potential names for this podcast. The first one, which was already taken, so we couldn't use it. But the first one we we brought up with SoapBox. Because we both like to, like rant about things like in a productive, a productive and like generative way. I would say not like a
Maria
Yeah,
Celine
I mean, sometimes it's just like ranting.
Maria
Yeah, I mean, like the very first podcast talks that we had were right after you and I had talked at a Streams of Justice event at our church.
Celine
Yes, about about LGBT education and yet, like justice for queer people, and what does that look like? So we had a lot of stuff to say. Yeah, still,
Maria
Still do.
Celine
But yeah, so I think it's kind of cool how our, our friendships have overlapped and intersected and commonalities and how they came together in the making of this podcast.
Maria
Yeah, and they've, they've birthed things but also been birthed by the same things like even just Trixie, you like my relationship with you, is solely. Well, maybe not solely, but mostly in part of the podcast, right? Like we wouldn't know each other nearly as well, if we hadn't been working on this project together.
Trixie
Yeah, totally. And I was gonna say on that, like, I feel like when I think about you, Maria, and our friendship, particularly developed, grew, blossomed in the last couple months. A lot of it is, I mean, we did a few in person recording, but really, it's like, I feel like some of the meaningful conversations me just standing outside your door, social distancing, and picking
Maria
Six feet away.
Trixie
Yeah, picking up stuff from you picking up beautiful art and cards from you. And just like having these really real honest conversations, and I think as I'm exploring and learning you know what does it mean for me to be Taiwanese Canadian, I think something that that you brought that is for me so real is that you embody like you're a Taiwanese Dutch person. And I always feel, in some sense of because of the circle, that I'm in, the community I am, which has a lot of Dutch people. And that's kind of how I grew up, I always felt Dutch. But even though I'm not biologically, obviously Dutch, but I always felt that way because of the community I'm part of. And so to meet you, who's both like, I think Taiwanese and embody that, but also you're Dutch, I'm like, WOAH, this is like incredible, just like to hear from your perspective, what it means to be particularly also biracial and kind of holding the tension of yeah Eastern and Western to different culture, because I feel it a lot. And I'm just trying to be be in it and be more fully show up, as that be Taiwanese, but still, like understand that I do hold if I would say the Dutch culture, and the Dutch identity because of the, you know, the spaces I grew up and educated and go to church to. So I just really grateful for you in terms of how open you are. And you're like, ask me any questions, and I've learned so much from you, just in those conversation, particularly the last few weeks and months. Oh,
Maria
Thanks, Trixie!
Celine
This whole episode is us just fan girling over one another.
Trixie
Yeah.
Celine
But it does tie in, I think to a book that we were turned on to by a friend of the podcast Meghan Mast: Mia Birdsong's book, 'How We Show Up', which both Trixie and I are in the process of reading or listening to via audiobook and Maria will read at some point. But, in it she talks about a lot of really grounded and generous and expensive ways of being in relationship with one another that go against kind of the expectation of a relationship hierarchy being like your spouse, or partner romantic partner fulfills, is meant to fulfill all your needs for intimacy. relational intimacy. intimacy needs when we know that's not possible or healthy. So she talks a lot about what are ways that we can relate to one another in a more equitable and just and expansive and generous way. And one of the things that I remember taking away from what I've listened to so far is each friendship and each relationship is its own thing. It's its own relationship. And so each friendship is unique. And each relationship is unique. So, in thinking about it like that, like it seems simple, but she talks about how then each friendship and relationship would have its own kind of commitments and expectations, and communication and what people bring to one another. And I think she, she speaks against the idea that friendship is always easy, like, sometimes there is kind of a natural fit with someone or like, kind of the idea of a kindred spirit, which I like where there's connection, but also friendships like romantic relationships, like require work and communication and kind of like working out the messiness of being together and being people who bring their own baggage and expectations and traumas right to the relationship. So yeah, I love that we're opening this episode with talking about our own friendships and how they came to be and how those stories are so different right for each of us.
Trixie
Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm I was gonna say I like like you listening probably halfway through the book right now. And it's, it's it's so powerful because of the stories that she tells and up and the friendship that she encounters. I think Celine, you touch on so many things that the book have said, and that really have left me with a lot of convictions. And I think one of the things one of the many things is around committed friendships, and I think this time, especially during COVID, it showed me just the importance of friendship more than ever, and also like how interconnected we are. And that part of commitment is that part of knowing myself is also like through the reflection of others. And I think as I continue to learn and grow around into my own cultural identity and the int-- intersecting identities, I do whole, I think something that I feel committed to the friends who have been there who are showing up for me, maybe not physically at this time, but really, you know, I think about how we show up, which is what the book, yes book really talks about. Showing up is that commitment to be to listen, to, to share, to lament to celebrate, and, and I think a lot of that power. And that commitment of friendship is what I experienced this summer, when I'm able to be learning more what liberation look like. And I think part of that is that liberating friendships I've been able to build through this time, and people who have allowed me to be more encouraged me to be more fully, fully who I am, like being very honest and vulnerable, and also for me to create space to be more fully who they are. And, and that's a big commitment to really show up for each other. And so there's so many people, I feel like I think about who, you know, in some way, you have to think about who are showing up and who are not. And I think about one particular, I just talked to her this morning, my friend Sunia who's a good friend of ours, and also she made the music with her husband, Paul for this podcast, and just how, even though physically we're apart she's in Portland, I'm in Vancouver, we're five hours apart, actually figured it out, cross cross the border, we, I feel like have really showed up for each other and committed and I can call her and she can call me. And that has been, you know, one of the greatest thing that she's able to reflect back to me of who I am, and especially the times when, this summer when I experienced the racist incident when a white men spat on me, and that really created a lot of anger and rage and to be able to process that she was able to be there for me, and to really care for me in that way to show up in support on the phone, and on video chats, and through messages. And so just like both of you to like physically, both of you were able to show up, and we're able to talk, talk through it and process it. But that's a commitment. So really thinking around, like, What does commitment look like? around like, expectations around boundaries around showing up? And yeah, for me that, you know, show me that that is so important. And that's kind of part of what drew me to create those intimacy around friendships.
Celine
Yeah, and you talked earlier, when we were discussing this, this episode Trixie about how like conversely too there have been, like, whether it was the racist incident and how, you know, your friends responded to that when you would bring it up, or like, the pandemic in general, I think, has been really a revealing and a clarifying around friendship and relationship. So I think for a lot of us, like it's the conditions of the pandemic, being kind of like crucible conditions or conditions that are apocalyptic in ways. And by that I mean, like, you know, the sense of the word being a revealing, right, like a pulling back of some kind of truth about our lives. I resonate with, if not the same circumstances or context, the experience of like, having friendships and relationships be brought to light, sometimes painfully, in terms of like, what they actually are, and what they're not, over the duration of COVID has been really hard in ways, but also really fulfilling and good in ways for me. I don't know if you two want to talk about that, as well.
Maria
I think the thing that I noticed, kind of closer to the beginning of COVID. And I guess even now is just kind of the clarification of the friend hierarchy that I have in my being that I didn't necessarily realize was there. So like when the world shut down, you're basically shut in your house with whoever you live with if you live with other people. So for me, I have a roommate. And we're super open about the fact that we're really, really good roommates. And we're not friends, which is kind of funny to say, but it's true. Like our friends circles are completely separate. We wouldn't naturally hang out with each other. But we really love living together and we do it really well. So in that way, I was really lucky at the beginning of the pandemic, and also there was this layer of Like, who do I actually want to go to to get the support that I need to make it through this hard time. And when Vancouver started to open up a little bit and we were allowed to form bubbles with other households that opened up really interesting conversations about like, yeah, who are the people that are the most important for you to see in person. And for some people, that was biological family, for me, it was not biological family, but our producer Emma, she's my best friend. And so we bubbled and stuff such odd language. But, you know, we all know what it means. But yeah, it kind of, there was a tension that had to be held with like, Who is the most important. And then there's the added tension of like, if you feel like this, one particular person is the most important friendship for you. But they don't feel the same way. That leaves open the possibility for wounding, which I find fascinating,
Celine
Hmm
Maria
Yeah.
Trixie
Yeah, I am. Just what you just said the bubble thing for sure. Because I'm by myself alone. Never have I been so alone before. But at the same time, I don't feel lonely because I do feel like I've I've talked to, and connected with so many friends on the phone, but also, you know, in person in a limited way. And I think about who I think friendship also makes me think about who am I physically around, this is so important, like more than ever, like, if I need something, you know, especially the first two weeks, in March, I just came back from California when everything shut down. So I literally couldn't leave my apartment, because I was isolating for 14 days. So I think about my neighbors. I live in this building that has that I think part of the vision and the ethos is really how do we build this like mutually intentional, transformative community where neighbors really do know each other and care for each other. And I think one of the things that this has revealed this time is like, sometimes it's like, people who are physically around us and knowing your neighbors is so important to like, practically care for you like dropping off groceries or picking up things when you can't leave. Or if someone is sick, you know, we all took turns to do a meal train for someone in our building who had COVID and so how do we support and physically be there for each other. So I feel like neighbors took on like a whole new meaning of like that deeper relationship of like kin that family and and i think about Celine like you are just down the street, I can just walk to your house and Maria too, like how important those friendships were really like, even though I have a lot of good friends, you know, across Canada and the US and England, around the world, but I think about the people in my bubble who I can physically see. Even we have to beat this then to like, having you know in person conversation was so important for me. And the ability to even share some food or eat together were so important to me, friends that I can physically walk to in my neighborhood, those were like some I would say my my in some way, the deepest friendship because I can just like we can meet for a walk outside or go to a park. Those are so important to connect. And even though you know, it's hard to like not touch. I think for me, that was the hardest thing not be able to give a hug. But at the same time, we're actually able to be in the same physical space outside were was was super important for me and revealing also, for those people who I can't physically see like the time and the commitment I will make to talk on the phone to doing zoom endless zoom and video chat, the kind of relationship that we can just be really open, honest, and this time, be really vulnerable. And share, you know, all the all the messiness kind of we experienced right now those were the people that I feel that I felt the closest to because I can be more fully who I am. And they can be fully who they are. So but part of that is also lamenting because some friendships you realize, you know, you're not able to talk about racism, you're not able to talk about oppression and what's happening right now and the trauma, because maybe they're not in the same place, or they haven't thought about it. And so those were some of the friendships that was also painful to know, like, who to hold on to who to let go and who are your people?
Celine
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just going back a little bit to where you use the language of hierarchy. But I think what you're actually talking about, just because in terms of this episode, we're talking about moving away from hierarchy is like, what actually Mia talks about which I know you haven't read the book yet, but so much of what's in the book, I think you already know and a lot of ways, but you're, I think talking about what zones like so in the book, and I think actually I don't know if it's in the book, or if it's someone that she references, but the idea of zones of friendship and relationship. So you have kind of an inner you have an inner circle and then the circles kind of go outward from that and so rather than like language and like conceptions of hierarchy, which often mean a form of dominance or like one is better than the other. It's kind of how we often think about hierarchy. Yeah, zone or kind of a circle, which is very prevalent culturally in like Asian cultures as well as indigenous conceptions of relationship too is much more of a connected and holistic idea of relationship, I think. And it still entails like people who are closer to you, right? More like people gathered, I guess around a fire rather than
Maria
It's more proximal than, than the other. I feel like you just took a very, like Catholic way of thinking about it, and you made it very Baptist.
Celine
I mean, you know more about being Catholic than me...
Maria
You took a triangle, and you made it lay down and you made it very flat.
Celine
Because, yeah, I don't know, if identifies like, I don't really identify as being Baptist, even though technically, I'm a member of a Baptist Church.
Maria
I mean, technically, I'm also a member of a Baptist church.
Celine
But certainly the idea of like, I know that from what I've read, and like, heard from people, the idea of like, the round shared table is very important in circles. Yes.
Trixie
Yeah, yeah. And I think part of that inner circle, what you're talking about, I think about like, we used to word like language like significant other. And I feel like that is always that has a connotation of like, the romantic partner. But for me, I feel like who are the significant people in my life, or like these friends who are like family and a lot of them ar e neighbors, right? Those are the significant people in my life who are, you know, mutually care and support and love. It's about the family we make, right? Isn't it, I feel like, is just as important as the family that makes us the people that we choose to be surrounded by to care for.
Maria
And it makes me think of, so while we were planning this episode, I was racking my brain trying to think about, like, references of friendships in pop culture, and media and literature that I liked. And I really, really struggled to think of them. But you saying that Trixie makes me think of Grey's Anatomy, which is not a show that I would like, put my name behind as a good show. But I have watched a lot of it and the friendship between Meredith and Cristina, like, the language that they use for each other, they call each other, like their person, you because you know, they each are romantically involved with other people. But like, Christina is Meredith's person, and vice versa. And I really love that language, because there's a level of intimacy that I don't know, there's there's a level of intimacy that I feel like even goes beyond romantic intimacy.
Trixie
Yes,
Celine
yeah. And so often, we are taught that intimacy is only in the domain, or certain types of intimacy, or only within the domain of the romantic or the sexual when really, intimacy is actually now that I'm talking about it, it kind of reminds me of like, the whole idea of a scarcity mindset, right? The idea that, like, there's only a certain amount of intimacy that you can take or give. And so then it must be only within the bounds of like, a particular privileged as in prioritized relationship. Yeah, being the romantic and sexual partner. But really, intimacy is kind of like a language that we speak, right? It's like a way to be with other people and to be in relationship with others. And while it's not like you can do that, it's not like, you can kind of like, throw that everywhere. Because no one has that capacity. There is an abundance of intimacy that we can give and receive. Now often we are, well, not just afraid of, but like, we're taught so much not to do that. Right. Like it goes against the grain of society and often of like church culture to, to be more expensive with our intimacy and our affection as well.
Trixie
Yeah, I think about I mean, I think a lot about family and when you just talk about the domains that the intimacy often you know, culturally and within the church to particularly it's a focus on like the relationship, the marriage domain, or the family, like the biological family domain, which I'm single right now, and I'm not connected to my family, sadly, it's, you know, I came from a really broken immigrant family. And so for me, like, I have to, I had to really reorient how I thought about relationship and intimacy. Because for me, friendship is actually where I get the most sense of intimacy, like the emotional, relational, even physical, that kind of affection of touch, that that for me is is so important. And, and yeah, it's hard when I feel like it's not talked about as much, especially within the church in terms of valued as much. And even society like is hard to find how it's represented. And sometimes it's not as much represented in like the media we watch right, in terms of upholding kind of more of a romantic or even biological family. So this is why I have to, like remind myself, like how we can reimagine how we choose family and kind of the the chosen family for me It's so important for like, particularly around friendship, and that celebration, and acknowledgement of intimacy, which is we all need no matter we're married or we're not married, you know, no matter what, whether we have biological family or not like this is something we all need, because that's what we're built for to be interconnected, interdependent on each other. And COVID has really showed us that in the most practical ways, but I do think it really shows us like, how do we show up for me? Like, for me, it's like, yeah, how do we show up for people? That is a huge part of intimacy.
Maria
Yeah, cuz ultimately, intimacy in whatever form you're thinking about it is just being truly known, you know, whether that is physically or emotionally or psychologically, and in our society, we are taught that no one should actually truly know you. Because our true selves are unacceptable in whatever form we're talking about. So it can be really, really scary when you grew up, in a society that tells you constantly that you are not enough and that you are unacceptable, and that something is wrong with you. Or that, like, you need to somehow fit into this box of normalcy. The idea of like, being your true, weird, broken self in front of other people is terrifying, you know, that, I think, at least in my case, my strongest friendship, think about my friendship with Emma, but my friendship with other people, they are strong, because we know each other truthfully, and we've been through kind of, like the hard and the nitty gritty, and the messy seasons of our lives together. And the thing that helps to carry the friendship through those seasons is actually the vulnerability and not hiding ourselves from each other.
Trixie
I think part of that, as I'm learning more about myself is, is building trust. And I think, you know, that is so intimate, because sometime, you know, trust can be easily broken also. And, and in a time where, you know, there's like so much trauma, racial trauma, oppression, and I feel like hurt people can also hurt people. And so how do we, as we try to build that trust and vulnerability, and honesty, how do we extend that, that that space for you know, Grace, forgiveness, patience, and, and to fully work together around liberating ourselves and liberating others around us, and that it takes time to build those trusts and accountability? And so, yeah, I feel like that kind of accountability around like community care and self care, they're interconnected very much. And that's, that's important, too, to be able to work on that and and to kind of hold a space for that tension.
Celine
I think it's so important what you talk about Trixie because it goes, unfortunately, like the idea of trust and vulnerability, you even though we talk about these things, often in church or Christian rhetoric, like the church, church culture, like mainstream church culture which, kind of goes against that trust and vulnerability. And in fact, like, doesn't, or has a huge problem and distrust of the ways that intimacy and affection are shared, right, like, and I think part of that is fear of sexuality, and kind of positioning it as dangerous. Which goes back a long way, we probably won't like, we don't have the time or expertise to trace that whole lineage. But like, I think many people, especially people, now who have grown up, or experienced a community have seen that in some form. But that fear, which in the latest episode, I think of Reclaiming My Theology, do remember her name, the interview, the interviewee, Trixie,
Trixie
It'll come to me, but you just keep going.
Celine
Okay. We will try to put her in the show notes. Because I can't remember her name off the top of my head. But she's, I believe a midwife, who talks about how or is she a doula or a midwife can remember she's a birth worker. And the conversation is really wonderful and informative, and highly recommend listening to it. But she talks about how fear is the opposite of love. Not hate, right? So when there's kind of this culture built out of fear around particular things like sexuality, and I wouldn't say probably more so like, women's sexuality, or like women or femmes or like queer or other, you know, sexuality,
Maria
Just not male sexuality.
Celine
Yeah. Then that fear shows itself in the ways that men in the church, or those in power in the church, who are usually men like try to control what they see is to be feared. And so I think the ways we see that is physical affection and relational intimacy are discouraged in almost every way and form, right, except for the small, tiny exception of like a romantic spouse a straight, like in a straight relationship. So it's such a narrowing of the way that we're meant to be in relationship and be connected and close and trusting of one another. And very, disembodied as well, right? Because physical affection and showing up for each other by expressing physical affection is such like a good and generous way I think to like, be together and to communicate care and love. And it's so discouraged. You two could probably talk more about this because I know that when I was single, like, I didn't have a partner who also would be like visibly in the church and was in like, a straight passing relationship. When I was single, it wasn't. I remember experiencing this very strong sense, like this cultural sense of like, what was okay, how to touch people, and like how that would be okay. Which is like, when you have a partner, you can like, put your arm around them, whatever. And then what was like, not encouraged, which is like everything else. Other than, like, say like the hugs, you know, the hugs and handshakes type of thing.
Maria
Yes, yeah. But even even even thinking about hugs, like, I mean, I can kind of chuckle about it now. But it still kind of infuriates me that the quote unquote, Christian side hug. Is so alive in churches, and I don't understand. I mean, I do understand it, because I grew up in like, purity culture. And, you know, I do understand the thinking behind it and the fear behind it. But the fact that, like me as a woman, it's taboo to hug a man, like front to front and, and how, like, lots of people find that ridiculous or uncomfortable or inappropriate. And just, I have no words.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I feel you, I mean, just rewinding back, her name is Erin Cory. That's she's the doula and owner of the Ezer birth collective with that podcast episode with Brandy Miller, where, you know, talking what you just said about love and fear in our body and, and embodiment in disembodiment and just the physical touch. I totally feel that way too Maria, like, I love hugging, that's definitely my language, my love language, I guess. And I say hugging as in like, full body hug, like, and at least a good solid five second or more, until it gets awkward, like my friend knows that, like, that's how I feel love. And again, because I'm disconnected from my own family. Like I said, this is why the friendship is so important for that relational intimacy. But I think also, like, within the church context, it sometimes is really hard. It's like that handshake. Or you can just, you know, if I hug a man, it's like, there's the awkwardness, or the judging looks from other people or that assumption, if you know, if you're getting close to a guy, be like, ooh, is something going on? And so like, yeah, I feel like how can I? How can we just make this more free? Like how can we be more freely express our love and care for each other and to be not afraid of our body right to be really actually embodied? That love that we often talk about at church, but not displayed and not affirmed? And not celebrated?
Maria
Yeah, I think Trixie, maybe the, maybe the first step or the first like, lean forward, of that question is like, we have to free ourselves, first of all, so I mean, Celine, you know, this part about my history. But I like when I was a teenager, I went through a phase of like, very strict, deeply conservative, like Southern Baptist values, long skirts, long hair at the works. I think maybe I've mentioned this in an episode before. But like, going through the work of freeing myself of being afraid of my own body, and like, I mean, that took years and even now, as a single person who is committed to singleness, like I've had to be really intentional about making sure that I get the physical affection that I need to be a healthy person, because physical touch is absolutely my number one love language. So with select friends in church, it like we have talked about and kind of put into practice this idea of like, when we're sitting together in church, it is acceptable to like cuddle and to put an arm around each other and to sit like that and to just kind of enjoy each other's company. And like physical proximity, which is not something that as a single person, you have to kind of ask for it or look for it, because it doesn't just happen organically. And I think the more that people do that, the more it will become normalized, but it's it's difficult because it's not the norm right now. And so You do have to, it does take work, it takes emotional labor to, to put the work into being comfortable with kind of crossing those boundaries and writing new boundaries.
Trixie
I think what I'm hearing you say also, so that's really important. It's about just able to communicate, right? communicate your needs, right, like your needs and your wants. And that hopefully you are in a friendship that you know, that has that trust and openness, and vulnerable to actually express what you need. And that person, your friend can can understand. And then mutually you can share and hold that space with each other. But sometimes, yeah, it starts with freeing yourself and knowing what you need and what you want. So you can communicate that and set those healthy boundaries, but able to, yeah, share that kind of intimacy with someone that can be reciprocated.
Celine
And I think as you do that, right, like, or as we do that we're modeling for other people, like you said, Maria, right, like, culture is only shifted, or it's shifted through people doing that kind of like doing that intentional shifting of what's normal or considered normal. And also kind of like, the people who have power in that place, doing what they can to articulate and show a better way as well, which we don't really talk about at all. We're seeing in like, churches or Christian spaces, unfortunately. But there's a lot of places outside of the center of power that are talking and model talking about and modeling this kind of more expansive, generous way of being intimate, and affectionate and relational in our relationships, which I think ties into what one of the main, the main things that Mia Birdsong, talks about, which resonated with me when I was listening to her read the book. So one of the great things bit of an aside, the one of the great things about the audiobook for how we show up is that it's actually me reading her own book. So it just feels so much more real and warmer than like someone who didn't write those words saying it. So it's really wonderful. I've been loving listening to it. One of her main things is those who are most marginalized and excluded from mainstream society and the way that our, our culture, and our systems prioritize particular kinds of being in relationship in a very rigid and hierarchical way, the people who are most marginalized by that, and who are excluded from that being possible queer people, houseless, or poor people, like sex workers, like people who are on the margins of, of many kinds of margins, but those are the places to look for wisdom, and to look for ways of being radically different, and how we take care of each other, and how we show up for each other, and how we relate to one another. Because those people in those communities have been already doing that work, because they are trying to survive and create different ways of being outside of the power structures and societies and systems that we live in. Which totally makes sense to me. Because I think about like, the ways that women in the downtown Eastside have schooled me on how to take care of each other, and how to show up for one another, and how to be real with people like, I mean, you talk to pretty much anyone who's worked in like, an inner city environment, or like an environment with a lot of folks who, who are poor, or who have been, like, gone through multiple kinds of systemic oppression and hardship and like, come out the other side of that, or and are still living that, and they will say, like, there's no bullshit with people in those communities, because they've realized, I think, like, there's no point there's no point to showing up with a mask or like trying to put forth a different version of yourself. And this and that way, they've kind of arrived at a place where so many folks who have not experienced before or being systemically oppressed and all of those ways in those layers of way, they've come to a place where we A lot of us who are have not experienced that have yet to get to right, where we still struggle with like, how to present ourselves is like our real selves and, and all of our baggage and our struggles and our traumas and and I've learned so much about being real, and of like, mutuality and kind of like looking out for one another from these women that I've met through my through work in the downtown Eastside. Yeah, and and also from queer friends and like, people who have taught me about expansive friendship and expansive relationship and moving towards love rather than fear when a relationship changes, or even just like thinking about and practicing friendship.
Maria
Mm hmm.
Trixie
Yeah, I just remember just kind of jumping on what you just said something. I mean, so many things taking away from the book, but she has this one section. Around the queering of friendship in the book, and that was so, so powerful in terms of how she explained that in terms of like the systemic oppression and constraints, that we often find ourselves that friendship is kind of put under and that queering of friendship is really to create that generous, generous space, space of care and love for support that we can open up to each other and cross those boundaries and barriers that's often put between us and you know, what I'm learning and also working at downtown eastside about how people really look out physically look out for each other and check in on each other and that family that able to create queer, queering of friendship, you know, that they're really breaking down all those barriers, I think we often put pull up in and build it's, it's really incredible for us to be able to kind of see what kind of community that they're creating in the intersectionality of different identities and culture. That makes me think and again, in the book, she also talked a lot about black folks and part of that is you know, as as your many experience, the oppressive structure and being separated from the mainstream they really talk about how you were raised by this village right this village rate raising like now your your grandparents your aunties, your uncle's like, and I love that because I think about Asian culture too. I can, I can obviously only can speak really to that. There is this culture that you call likes, like as part of respect and honor you call someone an auntie right? And they're not actually biological relate to you. But this is kind of what you do and your cousins and your uncles and PoPo, you know, PoPo is Grandma, and then especially because Downtown Eastside is right By Chinatown, intersecting that, I see that and I would call, yeah, call the PoPos. And, and, and I feel like that's something I want to live more into, as I continue to try to reclaim my own Asian identity, Taiwanese cultural identity, to to live in that, that modeling of that expensive family that you were talking about that it really does take a village to be able to create healthy community, with each other and for each other. Yeah, that's something I want to continue to do to to reclaim that sense of family of aunties and uncles and cousins and grandparents.
Celine
Hmm, yeah, we should just distinguish just for listeners, maybe, that when we, and they'll get this if they read the book, or they've read queer theory, but to queer something being like a verb, the way we're talking about it right now is kind of to intentionally subvert the norm or the status quo of something. So we're not saying like, you have to be queer in order to do this, although a lot of usually queer folks often model because they experienced being queer, which is not normally considered the norm or status quo are often like experts in queering things. But yeah, I've I've kind of like a verb. It's an action and an intention and a kind of orientation that like anyone can kind of think about in terms of queering a very narrow, and narrow and rigid norm that is enforced. So to move beyond that.
Trixie
Mm hmm.
Unknown Speaker
And I love Trixie, that when you were talking about that, like with that in mind, like the idea of to queer friendships, or to queer any kind of relationship is also to reclaim like cultural pieces, and to kind of decolonize and those things are all kind of actions that can occur, being tied together and overlapping, right? As we unlearn these very narrow conceptions of what is appropriate or like, normal, I use that with quotes, relationships and friendships. And we're unlearning those from, you know, capitalist and white supremacist society. We are also getting more in touch with actually, ways of being and ways of being in relationship that are much older, that are more aligned with our own culture. And, and the ways of seeing relationship and community that are older than people being like, than settlers being on this land, you know. And everyone has some ancestral story, like everyone has some ancestral story of being in a connected relational community, kind of the village of what you talk about Trixie some far some way back in their history, right? Like, it's not like white people don't have that part of whiteness. What whiteness does is try to erase those connections to your, to your the stories of your, your ancestors in your family that came before came before kind of the giant eraser. Right, so like, yes. So everyone, I think can kind of like think about what not to like, go back to that necessarily. Because that's not possible. What are what are ways that we can reclaim and learn those things into our context now? Like what are the ways that we can create that kind of community and village way of being with other people, in cities and in neighborhoods. Right and in places where you live with housemates, and you know the context of our lives now.
Maria
Yeah, and I think this is something that both of you have touched on, Trixie, particularly you were talking about. The Popo is in Chinatown?
Trixie
Yes.
Maria
And, yeah, that idea of intergenerational friendship. I think so lost in our society, we live in a really agist, among other "ist", but like a really agist society, where elders are not looked at with reverence or respect, they're marginalized, they are pushed outside of the center of community life. And with that comes this idea that everyone should just kind of mingle with their own age group. And I think there's, there's beauty and value in having friends that are in the same life stage as you, I don't want to diminish that. But there's also so much beauty and value in as adults, being friends with children and being friends with elders, who are at least one, maybe two generations older than you. And so much so much cultural wisdom, can be lost if we don't have those overlaps. And those those relationships and conversations.
Trixie
Yes, yes. And that makes me think of part of like, building and nourishing those intergenerational friendship, again, with elders and with children is also that giving and receiving, which I think is so critical, again, back to building trust is this circle of like, you have something to give and you have something to release, receive, and particularly with elders, you know, we, you know, there's many things that we can give and support, but they also recognizing that they have so much like you said, wisdom, cultural wisdom, and experience and live stories that they can share with us and teach us. And so I think this like holding space for that giving and receiving is kind of what will continue hopefully to nurture those friendships, those intergenerational friendships, and particularly kids, I feel like I even though I give you know, to them, they give me so much and reminds me What does it mean to like, use your imagination, be curious, be creative. Say what you think, you know, and be literally be embodied, like live in your body. And I feel like yeah, I've learned so much from that, too. So continue to practice a model of the giving and receiving, I think, or nurture these intergenerational friendships.
Celine
Yeah, something I learned, again, from women and elders in the downtown Eastside, the indigenous women that I got to know through working in the community, one of the practices, there are a bunch of practices that have to do with honoring elders, and one of them was serving elders first at any kind of meal or feast. It's, it's kind of a way to, yeah, honor the life lived and the wisdom and the just how much they have, how much how important they are to a community and to a group of people. And another one too, is to have an elder, say a prayer before any kind of event where people are gathered together. And again, just to open to open kind of the space was to have an elder kind of speak first, I once went to a panel where the panel was talking about police brutality in various communities. And it was really interesting because it connected black and indigenous struggle with, you know, prisons, and police and kind of state violence. But one of the things that I remember most from it, I mean, there were a lot of really informative parts of the panel. But I remember very clearly what happened at the beginning, which was one of the speakers who had traveled from the States--a black speaker asked, before giving her talk, like on the panel, she asked if an elder in the room would give her permission to speak. So she asked that, and then one of someone who considered himself an elder was at first confused, and then like, once he got it, he was like, Yes. And then she continued. And so but this beautiful practice, I think of not just honoring the elders of a community, or where you are the ones that you know, but also just when you enter a space, or you enter a new kind of gathering or group of people to honor the practice of honoring elders, like bringing that with you. Mm hmm. Which is something Yeah, again, like all these practices are so countercultural to like, mainstream society, which is obviously so marked by all the isms that we, we often talk about, but those things that are, in this context, kind of like the colonial idea of like, the devaluation of elders, I should say, is seen as normal, like, it's become like what we think of as normal, which is something to push back on and resist.
Trixie
Yeah, and I think, just on that to like, in terms of being presence and, and part of for me is like, also honoring is like receiving the posture of receiving which I think it's very, also very countercultural, because I think we're taught to like, give and take, but receiving takes a lot of humility, to be in that posture of particularly receiving blessings from elders and also asking for help and asking for what you need, right? And then receiving. So I think that's part of, hopefully, you know, the work around like decolonizing. Our relationship, particularly like in the community dislike circle giving and receiving. It's, it's needs to be reciprocal.
Celine
So what we've been talking about a lot is kind of moving away from relationship hierarchy, and hierarchy being things on top, dominating other things or kind of like a linear progression of priorities. And instead of, instead of that, moving towards something much more expensive and generous, and how that's actually a freeing thing. One of the things that we also talked about with physical affection was how we can ourselves kind of unlearn the narrowness, and the constraints, that society kind of imposes on us on what that looks like, in communication with others, and the friendships that we have. And then we can model that for others and kind of like, start creating the world that we want to see in that way, in terms of how we relate to one another with generosity, and intimacy. We talked a little bit before this recording about how there are ceremonies, like public ceremonies that celebrate romantic relationships, right, like weddings are probably the biggest ones. The biggest form of like, public ceremony, and celebration that we have now. Like, and maybe having babies like again, very.
Trixie
Yeah, baptism.
Celine
Yeah, in churches baptism, or leaving, like baby showers or whatever, or gender reveal parties, which we won' talk about. But they're terrible. They shouldn't exist.
Maria
We could we could have a whole episode talking about why gender reveal parties are, like just should Yeah, how they shouldn't exist.
Celine
Anyways, okay, a bit of an aside. But it's related because everything's connected. We have these, we have these ceremonies, right. And these ways of marking, and articulating and kind of elevating relationships, but it's always romantic relationships, or has to do with, like, the nuclear or straight or biological family. So in our previous conversations, we kind of talked about what are ways that we then can honor and celebrate friendship, because there's no equivalent right now. So I talked to you about how I actually knew of a friend who had a friend wedding with another friend, it was two men, and they, they had some kind of ceremony with friends present. And they made public commitments to one another, which I love.
Maria
So cute.
Trixie
It's amazing.
Celine
And, I mean, I love that that happened. And I also am like, why, why do I only know of this happening once? It should be more of a thing. But there are other ways to you, I think, that are that don't necessarily look like a wedding ceremony or that or that are that can be different or more like, everyday, or mundane looking, huh?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think when we talk about honoring and celebrating, and and i think Yeah, for me, it is hard because I do think like if I'm not married or have a kid and baptism, like it's held is that public acknowledgement, right? That is sometime It's so beautiful. And it feels so much like, there is accountability in that too. So how do we practice that with with friendship, and I'm trying to think about, like, even small ways, and even during this COVID time, I feel like a number of like circles of friends I feel committed to in even this podcast, right? Like, we come together. And we spend a lot of time talking even before we record this podcast and and there is that commitment, commitment of showing up listening of caring. And obviously I feel like this is talking about commitment. We're doing this live in public. So it's in some way a very public commitment of our friendships. Right, and, and our hope for collective liberation, you know, and so that's, I mean, one way I can think of I'm just thinking out loud right now in terms of a public commitment of like doing something together and honoring each other, but making it public so other people can hear and listen, and we can be accountable for our actions. And then obviously many other small ways around like different groups that we have formed during this time and ways that Yeah, we can acknowledge I think part of that is a huge piece of like, you know the making vows Is that really a knowledge meant right to each other, and of being there and showing up. I would love to see more of that in terms of not being just like, oh, a one off thing like what you said, with your two friends, Celine, that's like amazing, but that is so rare. So how can we Yeah, how can we turn that into something that we can celebrate and not just like a one time thing
Maria
Yeah I think the the main challenge that I see in this conversation is the fact that the way that friendships are regarded in society are so vastly different from marriages and, and nuclear slash biological family, just in in terms of longevity. So when you get married, even though divorce is an option, like marriage vows, generally are understood to be lifelong vows. Whereas I think, in our society, it's understood that friends and friendship is not necessarily lifelong. Or when you go into a friendship, there's no pressure to like, be in it for the rest of your life in the same way as a marriage has, right. And so that's really challenging. How do we shift that? How do we make it so that we can be deeply committed to our friends, but also maybe like subverting that pressure that marriages have? I don't know. But one way that I can think of in the church is the existence of like monastic vows or other ways of committing to singleness, even though the Vows are between the person and God, the liturgical ceremony that surrounds vows in monastic communities is very community oriented. So the community that you are entering, has to commit to being steadfast by you, and you have to commit to being steadfast by them, which is really, really beautiful. And I think that, like monastic relationships have their own level of intimacy that is different than secular friendship, I think, but I think that there's a wisdom in that steadfastness.
Trixie
Wow, that's beautiful. Just like reimagine. I think, as you're talking, I'm trying to think picture it in my mind, what does that look like? So?
Celine
Well, I think one way that you Maria kind of modeled and like birthed, a way of doing things differently in terms of celebrating and honoring singleness and singleness as in like, singleness is also community, right? It's not just like, you are solitary orbiting on your own right. But you've really modeled that by having your own ceremony and reception for when you took your vows of singleness, which, in the tradition, actually, maybe you should talk about this, because I don't know enough about. Tell us why you did that. And like, maybe I would be interested to hear because I don't think I ever asked you about like the response that you got from people.
Maria
Mm hmm. Yeah. That's a lot there. There's a lot to unpack in that conversation. But basically, so I like discerned I discerned for a few years, just kind of feeling a call to celibacy. Which like, I feel like in the secular world is a really, really big scary word. And so a part of my discernment was actually kind of like rehashing what celibacy meant, and what singleness means when you're out in the world and like how to be single, healthily in the world, and sustainably because we're not taught to do that. We're taught to kind of like, be single, as long as it gets you to a marriage and then be married and then be happy in that marriage. So yeah, my my journey, it was a lot of just kind of like learning and figuring out if, like how to be single, healthily. And part of that was a huge part of it was kind of figuring out, like, Okay, if I'm going to do this, I need to have a community around me, that will support me and kind of be my safety net in in the way that nuclear family and significant others usually are. And so when I kind of got to the point of being ready to jump off the cliff, I, we started to plan this ceremony, and we decided, we being like me and my close friends, and my pastor, we decided that it was really important to treat it like a wedding because I'm not going to be getting married. And so I wanted to really celebrate the commitment, this lifelong commitment that I was going to make. And so we did it, we treated it like a wedding, there were about 40 people, it was a really beautiful, like very quiet ceremony, which is exactly what I wanted. And then we had a reception where we just kind of like, ate food and chatted and played board games, and it was so much more holy and significant than I was expecting it to be. Yeah. And in terms of how people reacted, I think I only received To this day, I've only received like two really, truly negative reactions to talking about my vows. But generally, like, if I'm out in the world, and that somehow comes up in conversation, it's approached with a lot of curiosity and surprise, and most people just don't really know what to do with the information. Don't know how to react. And then in terms of people who were there, yeah, a lot of people were really moved in a way that I wasn't expecting. And I think they just thought as like, kind of a radical witness to the love of God in a way that Usually in the Christian in the Christian tradition, marriage is kind of like the ultimate picture of Christ's love for the church. And I was able to offer kind of an alternative picture of what Christ's love for the church could look like, outside of romantic partnership.
Celine
And it was really beautiful. And there was bubble tea at the reception.
Maria
Yeah.
Trixie
Amazing.
Maria
Yeah.
Trixie
Well, that's powerful. Thank you for modeling a whole different way of being that's so true to yourself.
Celine
That really encapsulates Maria. Yeah. Maria you're actually an anarchist, you just don't know.
Maria
Yeah, I was actually as I was articulating some of those things. I was like, Oh, yeah, like that is when I started to become radical.
Trixie
Yes,
Celine
Yeah. I mean, one of the big one of the tenants or phrases of anarchism, which identify strongly with is the idea of building the the new world in the rubble of the old. So like, as kind of like, it's not just about envisioning a better future or kind of like, thinking about ways to get there. It's emulating that future envisioning and emulating and building and growing that future as you live.
Maria
Yes.
Celine
So I totally see that as this anarchist act. Yeah. And Trixie, you you had mentioned, this idea of relationship anarchy, which I haven't read the essay yet. So maybe you want to talk about it?
Unknown Speaker
Sure. I mean, I heard it from the book. And then I googled it right away, because she talked about it. And the title is called the Short Instructional Manifesto For Relationship Anarchy. And again, I'm still learning. But I thought this was really powerful from the book, so I can read it, it's quite short. And we will put it as part of a resource, so you can access it after the podcast hearing, by supporting us on Patreon. This is also a read, I'll read it, and then we can think about it or reflect it and think about what this means. So in this Manifesto, Andy wrote, Love is abundant. And every relationship is unique. Love and Respect instead of entitlement. Find your core set of relationship values. Heterosexualism is rampant and out there. But don't let fear lead yo., Build for the lovely, unexpected. Fake it till you make it. Trust is better. Change through communication. And lastly, customize your commitment. So there's a lot I mean, we don't have to go because that will take us for a long time. But those are all the kind of bits and it goes into each paragraph breaking that down of what each meant. I mean, we won't go into I encourage you to read it. But one of the things that really struck me is just again, I think, go back to what we even talked about how love is abundant, right? I feel like we live in this society where everything is so like competitive and scarcity. And to think that love is abundant, and that every relationship is unique. And we have the capacity to love more than one person and one relationship outside of, you know, a family romantic partner. In this case, we're really talking about friendship, and the uniqueness of each of our friendship is interdependence between each other. It's, it's so beautiful, actually, to continue to, like hold on to that. And I think particularly in my faith too like how we how we think about friendship, and how we going back to honoring and celebrating is that lifelong commitment, just like we would make as people of faith and you know, if you if you're married, that's what I think for me, I longed to have for, like, my deep friendship, to have those, like, lifelong commitment with some sort of manifesto in our friendship, that could that come in commitment to, to encourage and support each other, to be our full self, and to share that abundance with others. There's this quote, in that I mean, we keep quoting that book so many good things, but I there's this line that we talked about, someone said I love you till ashes or dirt. And I love that and I think that is a deep sign of commitment also in friendships and I want to maybe I should start practicing that. To say that to friends and you know, normalize it in terms of like, this is I will love you no matter we fight or you know, things happen. Things get messy, share this messy, but I am going to love you till ashes or dirt.
Maria
And it really speaks to. I mean, I think I've said the word steadfast a lot in this episode, or at least a few times, but I really like it because it speaks to the fact that you don't actually have to like the person all the time. Right, like in the same way that in a marriage, you can love a person and go through like, quite long seasons aofr eally, really struggling to like them. And I feel like we need to be able to apply that same reality to friendships and not shy away from the fact that friendships will also go through storms and periods of time where it's really, really hard. But it doesn't mean that you have to drop it and move on to to another one. Right?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's good. And that love takes so many forms to write, which I think is where the title was gestured at with the title. Because often we, rather than a hierarchy, that privileges romantic love, at the expense of other kinds of love. Relationship anarchy would then say, like, instead of a hierarchy, instead of power over, it's kind of an invitation to experience and practice like love of many kinds, and doing that in communication with others. That's kind of developed over time, like through mistakes and through trying it to do it better as a practice, which is I think, maybe what they the author is talking about when they say, fake it till you make it like the ideas, actually, I think actually comes from an AA Mantra, right. It's like the idea that if you practice something, it helps align you with that, right? It's not like a disingenuous kind of action. It's just like a practice as in like, a discipline. Yep. Yeah, so I really I love that as well. And I love anarchism or anything with anarchy in the title. I mean, really, it's such a beautiful and expansive way of thinking about building a new world with our own practices and relationships. As the old one crumbles around us,
Trixie
Mic drop, I feel like that moment. So true.
Celine
So we thought we'd end with this poem by the artist Laura Mattis. This is part of a series called platonic intimacy. And we will link to the artist's website in the description. So it's just a long that piece of art is just text over a solid color. And it's worded similarly to the manifesto in that it's a way it kind of instructs a way to be. So here we go. Here's the piece. Cast your friends faces more. Side note, don't drink COVID. But later on. This was written a while ago. Destroy the belief that intimacy must be reserved for monogamous relationships, be more loving, embrace platonic intimacy, embrace vulnerability, use emotionality as a radical tactic against a society which teaches you that emotions are a sign of weakness. Tell more people you care about them. Hold their hand. Tell others you are proud of them. offer support readily take care of the people around you.
Maria
Hmm, wow. Yes. All of those things.
Trixie
Yes, yes, yes. I need to memorize those words. And practice it and live it out and model it for each other. The community that we want to be
Maria
Resetting the table is produced by Emma Renaerts, and the intro music is by Sunia and Paul Gibbs. If you like what this podcast is about, consider supporting us on patreon patreon.com/resettingthetable. We think it's really important to amplify voices of color and we hope you do too. Even a little bit will help us sustain and grow the podcast
Maria
For now Do Xia.
Trixie
Xie Xie.
Celine
Thanks and see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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