Maria
Hey everyone and welcome to resetting the table, expanding imagination around race, place and faith for our collective liberation. I'm Maria Mulder.
Trixie
I'm Trixie Ling,
Maria
And I'm Celine Chuange. We host this podcast from traditional ancestral unceded Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Wauthuth territory, otherwise known as Vancouver, Canada. Acknowledging the land is one way, we want to commit to decolonization and begin each episode in a good way, expressing solidarity with the indigenous struggle for right, reparations and sovereignty.
Maria
Today, we're talking about abolition and transformative justice or TJ, how do abolition and transformative justice invite us into envisioning a world without police, prisons and other carceral institutions? How can we start to imagine abolition not just in terms of systemic transformation, but in our own relationships and communities? This is the first chapter of what we hope will be many unfolding conversations with experts, comrades and friends. consider it an exploration and introduction. Let's get into it.
Celine
(singing) Talking abolition...I've been wanting to do that since we, like came up with this topic.
Trixie
abolition song,
Maria
same to Tracy Chapman. abolition, I'm excited. This is something I feel like I've been wanting to like, have conversations about abolition for a long time. And I have been just like, not on on podcasts or anything, especially because I feel now that conversations around abolition are expanding a lot. It's not just about prison abolition, which I think is the starting point for a lot of people, and it was for me, but it doesn't end there. It's not just about prisons, or about police. But for me, I also think about like, even the nature of like what carceral institutions are, for me, borders are included in that too. And I've learned a lot from Harsha Walia on this. It's so much more than just abolishing prisons, or abolishing police. Yeah, and it's very imaginative and like, I think energizing to talk about alternative possibilities outside of, like, carceral systems that we live in, which is where transformative justice comes in. Because I think it's the methodology. It's like the way we do it. Okay, so before we go any further and start nerding out on abolition in general, or in ernest, let's just take a pause, and maybe break it down for folks who are newer to the term or who might not know exactly what, what that might mean. So, what does abolition mean to either of you? How would you define it?
Maria
Yeah, I think for me, the core of the abolitionist movement is a movement that believes that police are not necessary for community safety. And actually, often the presence of police, lower community safety in general. And so at the core of the movement for me, which is something that I really connected to is this idea of generating Community Care frameworks, so that our understanding of the police and the carceral system that we function in is no longer necessary.
Trixie
Yeah, I think building on what you just said, as I continue to learn about people who've been doing abolitionist work, I think there's three components in my mind, that always helps me when I think as a flow. So I think about dismantling, I think about changing and I think about building, so kind of coming from what you said, dismantling is really dismantling the oppressive systems, and often like prisons and jails that really perpetuate more harm and violence. And part of that is really breaking down, I would say, the punitive culture that we're part of, that we see out there, and also really within ourselves. And that's something I continue to grapple with like because we're inundated with this kind of sense of like shame and guilt and isolation and revenge. And that punitive mindset is something that we have to do the work within ourselves to change the system out there. And that change, I think, often it can be that individual change level is really that systemic structural policy change that really gets at the roots of injustice and violence. And then I would say the biggest thing that I really connect with was is not just the tearing down and abolishing, but really the building up right the building of community safety and health and well being and accountability and just also harm harm prevention and reduction and what that's look like, you know, in terms of building something that's foundational, both to our personal and I would say community safety, which means like I think of housing Think of healthcare, think of education of access to food and drinking clean drinking water. These are, you know, the condition that that adds to community flourishing and safety and well being so. So that is such a much more generative for me connection to abolition work, which is just gets me really excited to learn more and be an abolitionists. How about you, Celine?
Maria
Hmm. Yeah, I think you both speak to such key parts of abolition, which I think there's, which makes it really compelling. And I think really energizing to talk about the fact that there's the systemic piece, which I think is the part that for a lot of folks at the entry point, which is definitely my entry point. Like starting with prison abolition. So starting with like the works of Angela Davis and learning about Michelle Alexander, like the new Jim Crow, and learning about how prisons actually don't protect anyone and how they are they target how carceral system is like, the prison and police, which now is like gaining more, I think understanding people have more understanding about this, but how they are they do the opposite of keeping people safe, right? They actually target racialized and marginalized people and poor people, in order to control and contain particular populations. There's that systemic piece, right and understanding it so that we can dismantle. But there's also the cultural piece and the personal piece, which is like, just as important in a way because if we it's relational, right? So if we relate to one another, if we work to dismantle these large systems, but we still relate to one another in a way that is punitive, about shame and about exclusion, then what good are we really doing right, we're not building the world that we want to see. So I think both those things are so important, and they're simultaneous to happening at the same time. One of the kind of contemporary abolitionists, or who I think of as kind of our abolitionist is Adrian Marie Brown, who we'll talk about a bit later, too, I think, but her idea of the fractal, I think, is something that I keep coming back to, which is that kind of like the micro, what happens on the micro will then affect the macro and vice versa. So it's like the small mirrors, the large, the large mirrors, the small, that can't be one or the other. Mm hmm. And we see that nature all the time. So it's like, we're part of that living world. And it's like a source to draw inspiration from.
Trixie
Yeah, and just on that note, I feel like that's so inspiring, because it just reminds me again, what does it mean to be in right relationship right with each other with the land, and that we're all interconnected. So the work of abolition is not individuals. It's really a collective and interdependent work that we that we all need each other to, so we can all be more free. And that's what I was saying inspires me. And I want to continue doing this work with others.
Maria
I'm curious, maybe we can share, like what our first entry point, or first, how we first encountered prison abolition, or abolition, if you don't want to use the like more broad term in our own lives, or like when we first in our own life, period.
Maria
Yeah, I feel like I've had feelings of abolition in my own, like body and soul for a really long time. But I haven't had the language to match it until very recently. And so this conversation is super exciting to me. Because, yeah, I feel like I've been given language to name all of these things that I believe in, but I didn't know were legitimate things to believe in and to, to support and to stand by. So I guess, in school, you talk about abolition, but the only real talk about abolition is kind of in history class when you're talking about abolition of slavery. And so that was my only context for that term for years and years and years. And then at some point, this year, I was kind of just exposed to this new framework of, like, abolition in our lifetime. And like, what, what that means and what that would look like, and it was totally new to me. And also it felt very, like old wisdom, because it was something that I knew in myself for a long time, but just finally had language to put to it. Trixie, how about you?
Trixie
Yeah, I feel like a lot what you say I totally, I feel it. And I think that's something you just mentioned in terms of like, this kind of language and framework is really connecting like my knowledge and my feeling and that embodiment piece is what I've really have come to, particularly this past year. Similarly, like you I think the word abolition is really connected to slavery, what learn in school, and really, I would say during this COVID past year is where I really start listening and learning and particularly you know, people who've been doing this work for such a long time. And and and as as I learn more I'm particularly with the defunding police movement too, I think that's kind of where I started to hearing more and more and more people talking about themselves as abolitionists, which is something I'm like, I had the feeling but I didn't even know like, it's you know... That is something something you can embody. And that as I learn more if I think about it abolition, you know, people do talk about like ending prisons, or the prison industrial complex or even culture of a prison. I think what has really helped me transform is this understanding the framework, which is the Transformers justice, right is, I think, how we respond to abuse and harm and violence. And I always thought like, this is what we have right now is not the way and and I think, you know, the idea of like how we're responding right now is to create more harm and perpetuate more violence, that has to be something better. And I think this, this is kind of my journey are learning about abolition and transformative justice, like really expanding my own imagination and feeling to cultivate something that, you know, we know will prevent more violence. And that's why I feel like I get really excited right now to have the words and language and in the teachers, who have been doing this work for a really long time, and to actually hear it a lot more everywhere, whether it's a media or you know, the people I'm reading right now, particularly a lot of women leaders of color, talking about this. It's it's it feels like it makes sense. It kind of connects in some way all the dots for me, and putting that language like you said into action. And I will say the one quote that. I know we can't, we'll talk more about it. But I've been reading Ruth Wilson Gilmore, who's been doing this for a long time. And she said, "abolition is about presence, not absence. It's about building life affirming institution". And I think that also totally changed how I've been thinking about abolition, which is always abolishing things, right, dismantling things, but it's really about building something it's like building what we want to see and reimagining it. And so that's, for me, like kind of sparking this fire and catalyst for me to think so much bigger than what I've been given.
Maria
Yeah, I was watching the feminists deliver, I think, Trixie you're watching this talk as well, the feminist lover talk on the end of capitalism, I think it was called or something like that. The great Angela Davis was there. I think one of the foremost or like one of the first abolitionist writers and thinkers, like she was saying she never thought she would hear talk about defunding the police, for example, being so talked about, like in the like being brought to the broader mainstream of like, conversations and culture, she never thought that would happen. And she's been doing this forever. So it is a pretty exciting moment, I think and we owe so much to these black woman leaders and revolutionaries. And also the uprisings around Black Lives Matter, like last summer, where people were really refusing to compromise, I would say, the this tradition, this abolition, abolitionist tradition of talking about connecting the dots between systemic racism and white supremacy. And these are the institutions that make that carry out the work of white supremacy, in really violent ways against the most marginalized, black and in Canada, especially indigenous people too through prisons, and the criminal injustice system. So I think it is like the moment that's full of possibility. And for me, it's like, it's so I think I said this already, I can't remember it. So it's energizing to imagine alternative, because that those things living, we're living in a way outside of not just prisons and police, but also punishment, or like the idea of safety, like what does safety actually mean? Creating a different way of thinking about safety as in like, communities being holding each other in safety? You know, like, really, it's about relationship. And like, all of that is really compelling, and really enlivening. Like, there's something in us that feels really called by, by abolition, and, and TJ because it's like, that's how we're meant to be. You know, we weren't meant to be in these systems of that perpetuate violence and that separate people from one another. And that punished people rather than restore and heal them. Like, that's not true to our dignity and our Yeah, how we can be with each other.
Trixie
I think just when you said that, I as I think and read more, I think one of the things is also we have like this culture, right? This is why it's also like really addressing the systemic issue and culture is like we have also internalized I think a lot of these, the state and like the tactics around like shame and blame and punishment and revenge and isolation. And a lot of that is like, this is why it's so powerful. It's like within ourselves and our community and our culture and structure that is what needs to change. And we have to start that with like, like I said, this the presence of I was a real values, relationship practices, and to kind of built the The kind of relationship and safety that we want to experience ourselves, right? And so for me that's like, wow, to kind of think, how can we practice in our everyday lives. And when we talk about community safety, I have been thinking so much about what does community accountability look like? Because that is an important part of like addressing harm and violence. How do we how do we do it in a way that does not create more destruction and more trauma? So that's something that I yeah, I love to kind of hear what you thought about what does community accountability look like, in as, as we're working toward, like abolition and transformative justice, because that's something that I think it's really important as we do the work in our community for healing.
Maria
I mean, I think people who, who hurt others need to know that they're held, like that they're loved and held in community, and that they will not be you know, banished, or they will not belong anymore, in order for them to make it right. You know, so there has to be like, some kind of redress and like responsibility taking to, to write whatever the harm was. So I think, yeah, accountability has to happen in community, in terms of like, as to be the hard work of like those relationships that have been fragmented, and you know, power, if power over has been exercised over, you know, from one person to another, there has to be that work of healing those relationships and building the trust again, but that can only really happen. I guess what I'm saying is that can only really happen if those people are held by the community. That's what makes it possible, which is I think, yeah, why TJ is so essential to addressing harm and violence. Because it's also like, it's not about someone being inherently bad, right? Like, it's about saying, like, both these people are human, both of them are going to be have been hurt, or one has hurt another. And like, maybe the scope is heavier. But like everyone who is involved is has a desire to be restored to one another in some way. Yeah, so in the end, it's about connection, rather than like a separation, right? Or about banishment isolation. Because like, that kind of fear, I think causes people to harm people more, right? And that's why a lot of people hurt people. It's like out of that isolation or that disconnection?
Maria
Yeah, and I think actually, it's, I mean, it's a really challenging thing to imagine, and to think about, because, like, deep harm has been done in lots of relationships, right? So I even think about, maybe it was last week, who even knows what time is, but like, when the cop who killed George Floyd, when his trial hearing came to an end, and he was found guilty on all counts, there was a lot of talk on the internet streets about like, this is not justice. This is accountability. And I would even maybe venture to say like, I don't even think that that is really accountability, because in the system that he was tried and found guilty, it is still a deeply punitive system that is actually not invested in reparations, and it's not invested in the healing of relationship in a way that like, transformative justice models would be right. And then even like, for those of us who identify as abolitionists, the thought of doing that transformative justice work with someone who we so deeply view as a violent perpetrator, who did a really significant harm, like I struggle with that, like, I think it just takes so much grace. Yeah, and I'll be the first one to say that I don't always have it.
Trixie
Totally. You know, what you just said, I think part of community accountability is that when the harm and particularly violence are that is not only just know, the people like the survivors and the perpetrators, it's like the community is affected. Obviously, we can see what's happening around the world, even with the George Floyd trial, like literally like communities are affected by what is happening, invested and are impacted, right, because of the intergenerational trauma and violence. And so this is where I feel like what you just said, the building of the connection, the healing, the trust is kind of what will create that sense of like, what is safety in our community? And you know, thinking about transformative justice--often I feel like how do we practice it in our everyday life ? It's really like, part of that is actually like learning how to deal with conflict, you know, and learning how to be honest, and to be able to tell the truth and hear the truth. Often, that's really, really hard to speak the truth. And I think you know, as I as I witness more and more and see what's happening, especially with people doing the abolitionist work, it's it's incredible. I think that gives me hope that people are speaking the truth and the truth is what we'll know, talking about systemic oppression and white supremacy, and colonization, these are the things that we need to change. So for the condition to change to prevent more violence and continuation of harm. This is kind of where I feel like hopeful when I think about both on a relationship level within a community and within a structure, but that that often comes with a lot of grace and compassion for each other, because we make mistakes, and it's not. And I feel like this is where the glimpse gives me hope. It's not like a utopia we're presenting here. It's like, it's almost like, I was reading Adrian Marie Brown, and she was saying is this like the unimaginable, feeling much more tangible? And so it becomes this, like longing, that, you know, we are continuing to, like be messy people, and what can you do to like, solution together, but that they'll continue to have problems. And this is where we can like, work together and show grace and compassion to each other as we work through this. And collectively imagine what it's like to live beyond like prisons, and to, to be able to do that and speak truth to each other. So that's the powerful change, I think, in terms of like having these uncomfortable, but important conversations about change.
Maria
And it's a change, that's also you know, a return, it's a change, that's a decolonial change, right? Because like, indigenous, as I understand it, in indigenous ways of knowing and being with the world with one another, it's relational, it's about connection. Like there's not a framework for kind of isolation, punishment, blame the same way that like the prison industrial complex, and white supremacy and colonialism have kind of, you know, crafted as this institution, and which grew out of right, like prisons, and police grew out of colonial governments that were trying to control like indigenous people to take their land and black people because they were runaway slaves at the time, right. So it's like, they came out of the agenda of these, these states, or these powers that were trying to control and contain the people, they didn't want to resist them. So in kind of doing the work of abolition, and TJ, it's, it is an act of decolonization, as well. So it's not just kind of dismantling a system and envisioning a new alternative, which it's also that it's also visionary work, as well as kind of like decolonizing work returning work, like reclaiming work too.
Maria
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a remembering, like a deep remembering and, and envisioning at the same time, and you can't have one without the other. And I think, actually, if we try to envision and do this visioning work, without the remembering, we would actually just create a system that looks very similar to the system that we're trying to abolish, right. And like, I think history has shown us that, because different systems have kind of come and gone and risen and fallen. But often, they're just evolutions of the same thing over and over again, like, like we can take slavery, and how that was kind of reincarnated into the incarceration system that we know today. And so if we were to try to reimagine the incarceration system, without looking back at the values that we've lost, I would venture to guess that we would probably just reincarnate it into something that looks different, but wasn't actually the life giving force that we would hope it to be.
Trixie
I was gonna say this will be a really good segue, because I think as we think a lot about transformative justice is really yeah, like you said, it's re imagination and creativity. I think often people I think out of fear, get scared, and they move to what reform? So worry, I know, you feel really passionate about this have a lot thought about what would you say to people who say, well, let's reform the system, the carceral system, the institution, because they're just like, yeah, there's like, literally almost like they cannot imagine what's beyond that. Yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts more about this.
Maria
Oh, man, as soon as you said the word reform I felt a change, feeling inside my body. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Historically, reform doesn't work. And like, I don't know how many times we can try to do it before people actually realize that changing a system that is inherently oppressive and inherently white supremacist and colonial like, you can't actually, let me think of an analogy. Okay, so this is an analogy that it's not mine it I don't know whose it is, but often in conversations about the medical industrial complex, which that could be its whole own episode, often the medical industrial complex that we know is talked about, like a dented baking pan. And all of the people and the medicines and the structures that we use within that system are the ingredients that go into a bread dough. And the idea is that it doesn't really matter whether you change the ingredients, whatever dough that you bake in that pan is going to be dented because the pan is dented. And so we can translate that when looking at a colonial system. And we can, we can see and look and say, like this system is inherently white supremacist, it is inherently oppressive to marginalize folks. And it inherently does harm. And so no matter what we do with the core of that system, those characteristics will always be there, they might just look different. And so like it's our responsibility, it's our call to step outside of that and imagine like, what would it be like, if we didn't take those characteristics with us? What would it take for us to actually step outside of the system and think of something that is so radically different that it's not even made of the same stuff? You know?
Celine
Yeah. Yeah, the dented pan analogy is good. It reminds me of Audrey lord's, quote about the Masters tools will never dismantle the Masters house. A system that's fundamentally unjust and oppressive cannot be reformed. No. It's impossible. It has to be transformed. And there are various ways to do that. Like we could actually, I was thinking we could do another episode sometime on systems change, which I'm a kind of a nerd about like, I love talking about systems change. Maybe you just one thing I'll say about it briefly, though, is that like in the two loops, theory of systems change, there are various roles. I just want to make sure I'm setting this correctly. I think it's Deborah Freese. Meg Wheatley and Deborah Freese. Yeah. So there are different roles that are involved in the changing of a system. So I mean, that's something to consider, I think, in terms of like, different people are going to be important in different places. And in transforming a system, right, it's like, not all of us can just completely exit the old system, because there are people in prison right now and there are families of those people. And like, we can just leave them behind, right. And we when we build this new, which we are kind of building a new world and how we relate to one another, but it's like, we also want to take care of people who are part of existing systems, who are oppressed or marginalized by them. So the two loop theory, part of it is about like, there are people within the system who are working to take care of the people who are affected. And then there are people envisioning a new system, there are people who kind of have power or influence within the old system who are kind of leveraging that in ways. So I think it's it's just, I appreciate these kind of systems change models or conceptualizations. Because, like, there is a place for everyone. The important piece, though, is that there there does need to be transformation. We can't hold on. Yeah, a flawed foundation for if we're if we want a liberatory system where everyone's free.
Maria
Yeah, and I think it's actually really important that those conversations happen in tandem, because, yeah, I mean, Trixie, you and I were talking about this a couple of days ago. But I think when when people spit out the word abolition, besides harkening back to slavery, I think another thing that that word does, is it it is associated with many people with just kind of like the tearing down of structures and kind of chaos and anarchy being left behind.
Maria
I mean, anarchy is not a bad thing. But
Maria
I know, I know. But like,maybe what I'm trying to say is it has a negative connotation because of the destructiveness that it is often associated with. But when we have conversations about abolition in tandem with conversations about system change, and transformative justice, and community building, then what happens is, the conversation shifts from, we just want to tear all these systems down to we would like these systems to disappear. And these are the things that we hope will replace this broken system. You know, and I don't even know what I'm where I'm going with this.
Maria
Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, I hear you especially thinking about, like, for me, it's not so much abolition that has that connotation. It's like revolution, for example. So I think of like, people when they talk about revolution, it's changing now, but I think there used to be, well not even used to be in particular, political groups, like radical leftist groups, like it has to be full revolution or nothing, you know, but the problem with that for me is it's not it leaves no room. Yeah, for the actual transformation to occur. So for me, I'm more interested in like, continued transformation as we dismantle the system. And I think actually like binary representations of revolution are very colonial right? There's no like, before the revolution and after, like, that's all like the history books written by white men. That's not how transformation occurs. And we can see, like, transformation in nature as being so complex and continual. And like transformation is all around us. We can learn from that. And it's definitely not a binary depiction. So yeah, but I hear you in that I think it's so important to that abolition and TJ are generative. They're not just destructive, although they are also like necessary destruction in terms of like destroying an unjust system, like a forest fire, right, which, like, you know, burns down a forest but also creates new life and fertilizes the soil. Yeah, it's a cycle of death and life really.
Trixie
And I think just kind of to add on to what you say to Yeah, it's about reorienting ourselves right from this like focusing on like this punitive system culture to like really changing the condition. This is why that is so key around system changes the condition that continue to perpetuate harm. And I think I've been thinking these days a lot about the cycles of intergenerational trauma, and the cycles of violence, how do we break that? Like, it's not with reform, it's with like, actually, care and like community care, community accountability, and that every day and building the conditions so that people can flourish so that people can live in safe housing so that people can access like mental health services. And, you know, these are like the everyday thing that will the conditions that will create those connection, and, and trust and safety. That's how we respond, not by responding to harm by going just to police is really about, like, how do we create these, like liberatory ways, like you said that we, so we're not living in these oppressive system that again, often pit like marginalized groups against each other, right? That's something I think a lot about too. That's why the system itself has to change so that we don't continue to perpetuate this. And then also that shifting to I think about often is so focused on the individual or interpersonal, but how do we actually create more like, systemic? How do we move to think about the generative, sustainable cultural change, because harm when it's done is not especially intergenerational harm is not just an individual harm. It's like it affects community and whole generation of people. And so yeah, this is I this is a work of courage. This is the work of truth telling. This is our like, everyday practice. And I think that's the hard part sometime too, because it's like, it seems like such a big, big topic, you know, such a big vision and movement, but like, I'm trying to hone in to like, how do we embody this in our everyday life? How do we create that condition? So that is life affirming in our community? And one of the things that I think asking questions is what I'm doing a lot these days. And, again, reading Adrian Marie Brown, she she has this article around what is transformative justice. And and she kind of leaves the article of kind of three questions, which I thought was really interesting, as I, as I'm thinking of how do we practice this Really? And so I'll say the three questions because this is like questions that I have too myself. But I think this is helpful to think about the changing the conditions, right? So the first one she asks is to really listen with a 'why' as a framework, obviously, when harm is done, we just go right into like punishing what happened, but really understanding the why the condition for what the person did, why did it happen? That's one question. The second question she asked us about asking, we can ask ourselves is, you know, what can we learn from this? What are the lessons that we learned, so we don't repeat the cycles of harm and violence? I thought that was really, really important that we don't often get to do. And then thirdly, she also asked, what are some like real time actions that helps to contribute to transforming the situation? Is that making it worse? And that's really, really interesting, because often we just jump right into social media. And, and that's where a lot of I think, further hurt and harm can happen. And so to think about, yeah, what are some real time actions we can do? And part of that I've been thinking about is like, skills, capacity, right? Like, whether it is de-escalation, training or bystander training, these are all the things that we can respond that doesn't create more harm, when we encounter violence, and also just giving ourselves process to like space to grow and to reflect and be silent? Think about forgiveness, like this is all kind of like, stuff that we can do in real time. And building healthy boundaries. Yeah, these are like without just reacting, which is what we tend to do often, and that can create more harm and violence. Anyway, so those are the three questions I've been thinking about that has been helpful. Adrian Marie Brown's been asking. So yeah, I wonder what questions are you thinking about as we, as we think about how do we practice this? in our daily life? How do we be abolitionists? And what does transformative justice look like?
Maria
I think maybe one question that comes to mind for myself is, that would be good to ask myself on a regular basis, is just kind of doing a check in of, like: In what ways am I feeding the system? And how can I stop doing that? So even just, I mean, yeah, I feel like I keep kind of coming back to the medical industrial complex, but my work my work as a birth worker that has that question of like, how am I feeding the system? And what can I do to step out of that system and the work that I do while still like, continuing to do the work? Because a lot of my work does happen in in a hospital setting, right? I don't have an answer for that question. But it is good. It's a good question to ask. And I think in lots of our lives, we, you know, we come into contact with systems every day, they might not be the carceral system, or, you know, like the Vpd, you might not be calling the police every day. But there's definitely ways that we kind of like consciously and subconsciously, just feed the system, because that's the way our lives have been lived up until this point.
Celine
Yeah, I think asking questions is a good way to frame it. So I love what I mean, Adrian Marie Brown does, like TJ kind of, I mean, I know she's a real person, too. But she's also kind of a legend, you know. So I'm so glad that she's writing these, like, she writes a visionary, but also very practical work. So I love that about her writing, but asking like for, for example, in a situation where you feel threatened or unsafe by something. So I don't know say I get like harassed on the street by a dude. So asking the why kind of like what you said, like an age remembrance question, like what's making me feel unsafe? Is it the fact that I'm being harassed, which might be part of it probably is, but maybe also, it's like, oh, this person is under the influence of something. Or maybe they're using drugs, or maybe they're like a low income person. And I have like this, you know, internalized bias, that makes me think that people who appear homeless or low income are more dangerous, like, maybe that's all part of what's going on. Right. So like, I need to ask that of myself, so that I can respond in a way that that doesn't, yeah, that doesn't cause more harm. So like, what can I do instead of calling the police? That's always a question. And there are like really wonderful anarchist zines that you can even Google that are like what to do, instead of calling the police like, all these alternatives that you can do, relying on other people, you know, all sorts of things like that. And actually, I just want to shout out that 18 million rising, which is a Asian American organization, they did, they put out a zine called call on me out the cops, and it was, it was going to be printed and like, dispersed among Asian seniors and elders to kind of like educate them about different ways thinking about community safety, but also that they could still have safety and like access and easily in their own language. This needs to be kind of continual, I think and how we want to think about who are who are vulnerable in our communities, especially right now. Yeah, so kind of divesting from the systems in our like, in the in the ways that we come up against them all the time. And I think, working to tangibly organize against the systems that we talked about. So like right now, like we were talking about, there's been a lot more conversation around defunding the police in various contexts and cities. So getting involved in that somehow, like spreading the word and like campaigning or like advocating for that. Less border restrictions, rights for undocumented people like all of that I see as part of the work too. And those are more systemic pieces. But on a relational level, which can be hard, but like letting go of the need to feel better than someone in a way. Like when we've been wronged, we really want to, like we want the right to, we're sorry, we want the wrong to be addressed. And often that it can feel satisfying kind of short term, to see someone else punished, even in a small way, right. And that's, I think, why we sometimes take to social media, or to these with these kind of like just just embodied ways of, of calling people out or whatever it is. I think that's the that's something we really need to like investigate in ourselves and sit with the discomfort of like, Okay, if I were to give that up, and like actually think about this person, as a person, not just someone who's wronged me, but like a full person with a life with relationships with who's in the same community as me often, what can I do, to move towards being in continued relationship rather than needing to be better or right in some way, that's really hard. It's so counter, it's countercultural. It's like counter ego, you know. And I think like, just to throw in the added wrench of like, in the Christian, the mainstream Christian tradition, so much of what we learned is really messed up around punishment. And like even the idea of sin, I think can be really weaponized against people in so many ways. So we've like really internalized and like have to really fight I think, to get out of these models of like, being bad or wrong, or someone being bad or wrong, because they hurt someone, or did something. So I think it takes a lot of stretching, stretching and growing. And it can be really uncomfortable. I think a lot of TJ work that I've learned about both practically and just hearing people talk about it, like, you know, the the hard and messy parts of like dealing with, say, a sexual assault, like in a really marginalized community where you need to deal with that. But also you don't want to call the police or like have this person isolated. But also sexual violence is really important to address. It's hard, hard, hard, complicated work. I think, a lot of respect for people who are TJ practitioners, who kind of do that as often it's not paid. Like, they just kind of learned how to do it. And they have, I think, so many good lessons for us, like Mia Mingus is a disabled TJ practitioner and advocate, and she's written a lot about, about that. I just have a lot of respect for people who have gone through that work. And, and it's kind of like the Mia Birdsong's book, where it's like the people who are the most on the edges, or the margins of mainstream society, the most oppressed and like in under these intersecting identities, like, they're the ones who are doing the visionary, the most visionary work that we need to emulate. I think that's true for tj.
Trixie
Yeah, I think what you just said kind of makes me think about my own personal experience. And that tension, I often feel right, the really hard work of transformative justice. I'll just share a little just a quick bit. I shared this earlier in like other episodes around like, my own experience, like my first time actually, calling the police was last year, actually, when when I experienced that racist attacked from a white man who spat on me. And so my first instinct actually was not to, like, I actually didn't think about calling the police, even though I was taught like police are here to protect you. You know, that was, again, what was taught to me growing up here in Canada. But that was not my first instinct. And I think this is where the intersecting identity of being an immigrant myself too, being a woman too, you know, I knew a harm was done. And I think talking to a few friends right after the incident, you know, one of them told me that, oh, you should report to the police. Actually, this is like, really serious. And I think I asked myself, I'm like, Oh, is it really serious. And I think, again, feeding into like, the kind of some of the Asian model minority myth is really like the dismissing of violence too. And I think I went through that, in my mind, I'm like, isn't that serious to call the police. And so on the one hand, it's like, is, you know, as a lot of research, and, and right now, the media is showing, like, all the statistics and data of like, particularly in Vancouver, right, 700% increase in the hate crime. And in some way, it's really sad, because I feel like we don't even need the statistics to know that it's happening because we're experiencing it. And so I think I, I felt that conflict, really, like should I call the police Try not call the police. At the end, I did call the police. And, you know, they, you know, I call them and they tried to go to the area try to look for cameras to find that, man, they they didn't. And, and I think I was reflecting afterward to I was like, the fact that I would call the police, you know, and not feel like they would, in terms of like harm too right, because they're totally communities and particularly, I would say black indigenous community, were calling police is not a choice, not an option, because often that results in more harm and violence. You know, the fact that I did itself is like kind of a privilege in that I am able to do it. So that's something I've been reflecting on it too. But also, especially, again, going back as an immigrant it is also really hard because we're told to like, be good, and I follow the rules and not know not cause more conflict. And so that's something I'm really grappling with the tension that I feel and and I think this is why transformative justice work is so important and that community care is so important. Afterward is like who are the people who are around me like both of you obviously, were two key people and you know, a handful really good friends who are able to care for me to help process what happened and I'm still you know, processing but it really did kind of it became a catalyst for me to speak out to speak what is happening, and to to be able to change the culture and the conditions that allow this to happen to talk about, like, what we talked about the colonial, oppressive white supremacy system that that continue to perpetuate racism, particularly anti Asian racism, right now as we can see. But ultimately, it comes down to like the people who will protect us is like, we have to go back to like the community, right, the people that we want to continue building that connection, and trust and safety like that community care and safety is so important, ultimately. So that's like my own kind of personally experienced as I continue to think about how well how does this look like in practice? And both in self awareness, but also like, how do we do it in community and relationship with people? And this, and then ultimately, it's about changing the systems? Yeah.
Maria
So yeah, Trixie, what you're saying about community care and thinking about community safety in a larger form, as opposed to just thinking about your personal safety? I think, ultimately, that leads us back to the conversation of why reform doesn't work. And I mean, I could get on a soapbox for hours and hours about why reform doesn't work. But I think I would, as we kind of wrap up, I would like to leave a pondering for folks who are maybe a little bit confused about why I so strongly feel that reform doesn't work. And so if you find yourself quite uncomfortable with the idea of abolition, but very comfortable with the idea of reform, I would encourage you to explore the reasons why you're comfortable with reform and why it seems like a reasonable idea. And I guarantee you that there are privileges that you have, that are tied to that feeling of comfort. And once you find what those privileges are, I would encourage you to try to step outside of that imaginatively and really like expand your imagination and your remembering to think of just what what could what could it be possible if you stepped outside of your comfort zonefor a moment.
Trixie
This journey of learning and doing transformative justice is this process of actually asking you these hard questions, right? It's not that we'll have all the answers. But I think this is how we continue to grow. And this is how we continue to unroot the systems that that were part of to really reorient ourselves to really reimagine this actually to ask questions. So like, the questions you asked: what's the possibility that we'll continue, again, to expand this journey. So I think it's more just like this is this is the posture I think of like asking questions like this is part of the work of transformative justice to embody it is to be able to ask these questions and not be set in our norms.
Maria
Yeah, and actually, like, be curious about what the answer will be. Because maybe it'll surprise you.
Trixie
Yes. Yes. Ask questions. Be curious. And let it surprise you What on earth you let it challenge you. Let it move you.
Celine
And to rethink safety to as like, not just how you feel personally, but also like, what would it mean for community safety, where everyone in your neighborhood or your community or your city has access to what they need, is seen and loved and cared for? And known. And there's trust, like just reimagining safety in that way. Which is freeing for everyone, I think.
Trixie
Yeah, that's the vision of collective liberation really.
Celine
Resetting the table is produced by Emma Renaerts, and intro music is by Sunia and Paul Gibbs. If you liked this podcast, consider supporting us on patreon patreon.com/resettingthetable. We think it's really important to amplify voices of color, and we hope you do too. Even a little bit helps us sustain the podcast.
Trixie
Thanks to everyone who's already part of the Patreon community. We love you and appreciate your support.
Maria
You can also leave us a voice message anchor.fm/resettingthetable or find us on Instagram @re.settingthetable.
Maria
For now doxia.
Trixie
Xie xie.
Celine
Thanks and see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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